Johnny Depp’s New Xmas Song Makes Fun Of Jesus – “jesus Stag Night Club”
Johnny Depp’s new song is “Jesus Stag Night Club.” (lyrics below)
HOLLYWOOD favourite Johnny Depp’s bid for Christmas chart success has caused a religious storm.
It tells the tale of a boozing, stolen car-driving Jesus look-alike who gets his kicks at lap-dancing clubs. Furious religious groups have demanded the song be banned from the air-waves.
I could not find the song on Amazon but I did find it on Amazon UK. Sadly, the bastards won’t even let me buy it. However, I was able to get it on iTunes.
Here is a sample for you….
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Now back to the story….
Depp has teamed up with band Babybird to record the tune. Lee Douglas, spokesman for the religious pressure group The Christian Coalition, lashed Depp for his “blasphemy”.
Blasphemy is a victimless crime. If something is blasphemous – I want it and I want to tell you all about it!
“One day, Johnny Depp and his cronies will face the judgment of our Lord and they will burn in hell for this filth.” The Focus on the Family campaign group also ripped into Depp over the “appalling” song. A spokesman said: “We are sickened by Mr Depp’s behaviour. Why did he need to record this song?
He will not face your “lord” he is not real.
Depp, 48, who helped to finance their pop comeback, is said to be “not concerned” about the controversy. Babybird frontman Stephen Jones, 49, said: “Some people have no sense of humour.”
Saw a man in a bar with his hair like a lady
Bloody thorns ’round his ears like he was a crazy
He had holes in his hands and a cross for a spine
Crushed a berry in his Perrier and called it wine
He said, “There’s great sadness in life, but don’t sit there and blub:
Here’s some tickets for your friends to the Jesus Stag Night Club!”
I can’t remember where I was last night
Think I was hanging naked off a church spire
Tied by my ankles to a weathervane
Felt like I was Jesus on fireCuffed to the bumper of a big truck
I begged my dad (?) to take me to a strip bar
Drank kerosene slammers through my eyeballs
Drove myself home in a stolen car
Turn a bird upside down and it lies in your fingers like a dead man
When you throw it in the air it’s resurrected from your hand
We went to a motel, he showed me his Bible
I said, “Tell me the truth,” while he looked me in the eyeballHe said, “There’s great happiness in life but don’t just sit there in love:
Here’s some tickets for your friends to the Jesus Stag Night Club!”I can’t remember where I was last night
Think I was getting on a night bus
Lyin’ on the laps of my good friends
Judas Priest and LazarusI’m getting married in the big bad morning
But it feels like I’m giving birth
I feel so happy I could scream
“This is my last few seconds on Earth”Saw a man in the street lying on the floor beaten up
He had a fish finger sandwich and a yellow-handled (?) coffee cup
I bent down drunk and tried to pick him up
But when I turned around I could see…it was Jesus…I can’t remember where I was last night
Think I was hanging on a church spire
Tied by my ankles to a weathervane
Felt like I was Jesus on fireCuffed to the bumper of a big truck
I begged my dad (?) to take me to a strip bar
Drank kerosene slammers through my eyeballs
Drove myself home in a stolen carI can’t remember where I was last night
Think I was getting on a night bus
Lyin’ on the laps of my good friends
Judas Priest and LazarusI’m getting married in the big bad morning
But it feels like I’m giving birth
I feel so happy I could scream
“This is my last few seconds on Earth!”
———————–
Edit: Thanks to Gary for finding the video!
MEX: “I’m not a scholar nor do I pretend to be.”>>
One doesn’t need to be a scholar to simply know how to learn about and study the works of those who are.
MEX: “Concerning Peter being the author of II Peter, the arguments against the authorship seem overwhelming.”>>
They are. The ancients had different conventions about authorship and pseudonymity than we do.
MEX: “For a mind who at this point is satisfied with the presentation because it has received exactly what it was searching for, it is enough.”>>
That is the error of religious faith based thinking in a nutshell. People go looking for beliefs that comport with their prejudices and give them emotional comfort rather what is actually true. I am interested in what is actually true. I grew up in strict religious tradition and didn’t find religious delusions to be a worth while use of a life. Many people do.
MEX: “you use this material with the exclusive intent not to educate but to oppose…”>>
Wrong. I use it to educate. You are just being defensive because I have pointed out the weakness of beliefs you hold based upon their emotional comfort.
MEX: “The intensity and great efforts and prejudice you put into tearing up my faith is suspect and mysterious.”>>
In the morning, before a long day’s work I like to spend about about 45 mins with various debates and exchanges I have around the internet. Gets me going. My comments to you take me minutes and a small portion of my exchanges. I’ve seen all of your claims dozens of times.
MEX: “I’m not Mexican, by the way.”>>
I use the letters “MEX” for you because they are the first 3 letters of your screen name. Nothing more.
MEX: “Why should I expect the author if a book about such rich love lie about authorship?”>>
No need to assume a lie. Names can be added later by others, guessing. Etc.
Some works of fiction can be very convincing. People are sneaky, especially when they have a religion and afterlife to sell.
D.
——————-
“….Man can contemplate his own mortality and finds the thought intolerable. Any animal will struggle to protect itself from a threat of death. Faced with a predator, it flees, hides, fights or employs some other defensive mechanism, such as death-feigning or the emission of stinking fluids. There are many self-protection mechanisms, but they all occur as a response to an immediate danger. When man contemplates his future death, it is as if, by thinking of it, he renders it immediate. His defense is to deny it. He cannot deny that his body will die and rot–the evidence is too strong for that; so he solves the problem by the invention of an immortal soul–a soul which is more ‘him’ than even his physical body is ‘him.’ If this soul can survive in an afterlife, then he has successfully defended himself against the threatened attack on his life. This gives the agents of the gods a powerful area of support. All they need to do is to remind their followers constantly of their mortality and to convince them that the afterlife itself is under the personal management of the particular gods they are promoting. The self-protective urges of their worshipers will do the rest.”
[Desmond Morris, "Religious Displays," _Manwatching: A Field Guide to Human Behavior, 1977, Abrams, New York, p. 149-51.]
@Darrel: I have read and hear from diff sources diff stories like this one. I know you’ll dismiss it. Neertheless, here you go.
http://au.christiantoday.com/article/ethiopian-convert-from-islam-tells-of-paul-like-conversion-story-dodges-attempted-murder-in-kenya/12758.htm
MEX: “I have read and hear from diff sources diff stories like this one.”>>
What’s your point? Religious nuts killing religious nuts? Hallucinations are very common in humans. Exaggerating stories and passing them around is too. That’s how we got the gospels after all.
D.
————–
“No miracle has ever taken place under conditions which science can accept. Experience shows, without exception, that miracles occur only in times and in countries in which miracles are believed in, and in the presence of persons who are disposed to believe them.”
-Ernest Renan, The Life of Jesus
Well, I can’t say you disappointed me. I knew what you were going to answer.
That said, one thing you can’t argue against is personal experience. My wife and I had encounters you can’t argue against. I confirm testimonies I’ve heard, but I can’t tell anyone what they saw or heard, especially, when they’re similar to mine.
Many testimonies are from Muslims who persecuted Christians. Some terrorists, one of Yasser Arafat’s killers is today a missionary, one of Saddam Hussein’s generals conducted Bible studies in the palace, etc.
Other testimonies are from people that encounter a challenge in their spiritual life and pray intensely for answers and find Jesus.
We had a time of uncertainty. Back in 1984, my wife began to have certain symptoms that for 4 months ans a battery of tests from neurologists, oncologists, physicians, and endocrinologist couldn’t detect. We had no idea what it was. But it was horrible. She would have partial loss of memory, feel tingles all over, get disoriented.
It all turned out to be Lumbosacral Scoliosis in addition to the very first vertebra in her neck was pinching a nerve.
There was no meticulous healing or anything, but during intense prayer, she experienced the calming presence of Jesus. She saw the same man in white ropes that everyone sees. His hand on her head calmed her down as a voice seem to say “Do not fear. It will be fine.”
I had a similar calming sensation, but I didn’t see anyone. I was praying while I was driving. When we told each other what we had experienced, we noticed that it had happened just about the same time.
A few days later, I told a friend about my wife’s situation. He told me he had was doctors described as epileptic seizures, but when they studied it couldn’t find a focus on the brain and he did not respond to the medicine. Another friend of his told him to go to a chiropractor. He did and got well.
We did the same and my wife is fine.
This is not a spectacular testimony. It is not a testimony of healing miracles. This is an experience that taught us not to fear and to know that He knows and He is in control. It is a testimony of His revealed truth and existence. No scholar, scientist, denier, can rob us of what we know and have experienced and seen. This testimony is real, is true, and is mine.
You argue from what you don’t know, nor have seen or experienced against those who have.
I don’t believe everything I see or hear, but I know what I’ve experienced. I have studied the Scriptures, I’ve studied the Archaeology, there are “other” analyses that show that the Scriptures cannot have been written by men including the prophesies, which although you dismiss in a microanalisys, they are still there, and then there’s the mystery of Creation which Science has opted for explaining through a propped up Victorian theory by one lacking a lot of data and formulating only on similarities.
We are reading today on the newspapers what prophesied in Ezekiel 37, and seeing the stage being set for the next chapter.
When God comes in to explain it to you personally, you will have been judged already.
M.
MEX: “one thing you can’t argue against is personal experience.”>>
Better than that, I can point out that even you aren’t persuaded by the argument from personal religious experience. A few billion people have religious experiences that contradict your own and you dismiss them for the exact same reason I dismiss yours: because claims of “personal experience” are worthless. And you know it.
MEX: “My wife and I had encounters you can’t argue against.”>>
There is nothing to argue against. The claim is vapid. You dismiss everyone else’s “encounter” that doesn’t agree with yours, for the very same reason I dismiss yours. I am consistent, you are not.
MEX: “one of Yasser Arafat’s killers is today a missionary,”>>
That’s nice. Christianity is in a century long decline. Atheism and non-belief has already taken over Europe and it is snowballing in the US right now. Just ask if you want the stats. Note:
“A new nationwide survey conducted by The [Christian] Barna Group… explored how many have what might be considered a “biblical worldview.” …
National Results
Overall, the current research revealed that only 9% of all American adults have a biblical worldview.” http://tinyurl.com/ckqa68
MEX: “pray intensely for answers and find Jesus.”>>
Except for all of the times they don’t.
MEX: “but during intense prayer, she experienced the calming presence of Jesus.”>>
The cemeteries are filled with people who pray, feel that and then die. Stress makes people even more gullible than they normally are.
MEX: “This is not a spectacular testimony.”>>
I agree.
MEX: “the Scriptures cannot have been written by men including the prophesies,”>>
Already covered. You have no fulfilled prophecies.
MEX: “We are reading today on the newspapers what prophesied in Ezekiel 37,”>>
Like all Christian prophecy sleuths before you, you’re wasting your time with nonsense. Have fun. It’s a fools errand.
D.
—————-
“It does not pay a prophet to be too specific.” –L. Sprague de Camp
These testimonies from so many Muslims of these days along with prophesies about the fact that events like these would take place, coupled with the also prophesied fact that Christianity would diminish in the last days in addition to biblical expressions like “many are called but few are chosen ” and “narrow is the way to salvation but wide is the way to destruction” (paraphrased); and also the fact that Israel has been again added to the map after almost 2,000 years of in non existence and that people who are called Jews were in a systematic process of extinction but that instead were gathered from all corners of the world to reconstitute the country with the biblical name in the biblical region that the Bible calls Promised Land and that today, there’s a political alignment and climate that could very well act up the fulfillment of prophecies in Ezekiel 39 added to my wife’s and my personal experience lead me to trust in the Bible and what is says.
Concerning the minutia of who wrote Peter, when they wrote it, what they wrote, regardless of anyone biases against the Bible, the way it is knit together, how later books quote the earlier and vice versa, the way the writings is intertwined with history, how its fantastic stories take you to real sites, its teachings, wisdom, and truths, its uniqueness, the dating, the Scientific content, the depths and width, the many internal word and number mechanics that make it a human impossibility, all these and perhaps more lead me with no other choice but to believe.
While you compare this with that and dismiss on possibilities (it could be this, it could be that) I think the whole thing combined is irresistible.
MEX: “These testimonies from so many Muslims…”>>
Muslims testify to lots of things. You dismiss it all, except for the little bits that you cherry pick and accept, solely because you think it supports your own personal superstition.
MEX: “along with prophesies about the fact that events like these would take place,”>>
You have no fulfilled prophecies, but you do have lots of failed prophecies. Hunting through a book filled with vague poetry and whacked out insane imagery (see Revelations) and finding correlations after the fact is easy to do and has nothing to do with prophecy. Nostradamus left us hundreds of quatrains filled with gibberish and there are no end of books pretending to find fulfilled prophecies in them, always, *after the fact.* After the fact is never a prophecy, it’s data mining.
MEX: “also prophesied fact that Christianity would diminish in the last days”>>
As we already covered, your last days were supposed to be about 1900 years ago. Belief in the Xtian superstition goes up, goes down. Over the last century it has been going down because of more information, the enlightenment, more competition with other superstitions on the market and I think people are just getting bored with bronze age absurdities. But not you!
MEX: “Israel has been again added to the map…”>>
There is no connection between the modern Israel and the biblical twelve tribes of Judah. It’s just a title, and some people who happen to follow a similar religion.
MEX: “the Bible, the way it is knit together,”>>
Of course it is knit together. We know who did the knitting. The Catholic church knitted it together hundreds of years after Jesus. They edited it as they wished and added and removed what they liked and got rid of the originals. And it’s all anonymous except for Paul, so says… the Catholic church.
0
0MEX: “the way the writings is intertwined with history,”>>
There are no end of examples of the Bible contradicting established history. You do need to get that library card.
M: “how its fantastic stories take you to real sites,”>>
Actually, last I checked, there are no known Christian monuments from the first century. Want to go to see the Jesus tomb? You in luck, they have three of them! And none of them are considered authentic by scholars. Israel is a tourist trap for gullible Christians.
M: “its teachings, wisdom, and truths,”
Yes, let’s review some of the wisdom and truths in your Bible. It tells us about talking animals (Num 22:27), demon possessed people and pigs (Luke 8:26-39) and a pack of dead who rise from their tombs like zombies and walk around town (Matt 27:52-53). It goes on about how putting a drop of goats blood on your right big toe cures leprosy (Leviticus 14) and that laying sticks in front of a pregnant animal can change the color of its offspring (Genesis 30:37). That’s all very scientific. Then to top it off, God becomes his own son, so he can sacrifice himself, to himself, so he will be appeased for a transgression committed thousands of years ago by a man that ate an apple he was not supposed to eat, because, as the story goes, he didn’t yet know the difference between good and evil.
Is that the wisdom and truth you are referring to Mexseiko? Is there anything so stupid that you would actually go: “you know, I don’t think I am going to believe that, it’s just too stupid.” Apparently not.
M: “its uniqueness, the dating, the Scientific content,”>>
Lot’s of false claims are “unique.” Perhaps even most of them. Truth has nothing to do with being unique. Most of the Bible is pinched from previous superstitions so very little is unique anyway. For example you probably mistakenly think Jesus came up with the “golden rule.” In fact it was mentioned by nine philosophers before him.
As to the “scientific content,” this just shows your ignorance of science.
MEX: “the depths and width, the many internal word and number mechanics that make it a human impossibility,”>>
Let’s see your evidence that it was impossible for humans to write your book. If you are talking about the Bible Code nonsense, I have given lectures on that issue and did a radio interview for our local NPR affiliate. But that was years ago. The Bible Code claims where thoroughly debunked.
MEX: “I think the whole thing combined is irresistible.”>>
Of course you do. At a primitive and fundamental level you are terrified of eternal death and will believe anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid that reality. And you will devote a great portion of your time feeding yourself carefully selected and filtered lies in order to help keep this comforting illusion alive. It’s one of mans greatest pastimes.
D.
————–
“The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true.
It is the chief occupation of mankind.” –H.L. Mencken
Your dismissing comments on each of my statements do not invalidate any single one. The same way false or even real but deceiving visions do not make a true vision God false.
You say that the Jews in Israel today have nothing to do with the 12 tribes, yet no one in the world can stop calling them Jews. Hitler was killing them because they were Jews. If they weren’t then that was a massive mistake. They are convinced they are Jews, live in Israel because they are Jews, come from Diaspora because they are Jews, are under attack because they are Jews. I know this is a crazy world, but heck this would be a gallacticaly mass self inflicted mistaken identity case. Wouldn’t it be? Further, if that is the argument you present to disprove a prophesy, I’d say your creative juices have ran out. If you took that argument from someone else then I can say you really grab on to anything in sustain your denial.
The prophesy states they will rise from dead bones, they will come from all four winds and reconstitute the country again. That’s a 100% batting average. It’s an amazing trick to take scattered people from all over the world, make them believe they are Jews, then get a guy, make him hate them to death, etc., etc., etc., Who done it, and for what reason?
[Insert H.L. Men hen's quote here]
You, Sir, are in denial of facts as big as the planet. Denial of the obvious is far from critical thinking. It’s being trapped into a mindset that dominates your thinking. You don’t even think for yourself. You look at historical facts, Google someone’s opinion that fits your trap and comfort yourself in it. You say to yourself “I’m fine. Not going to hell, because it doesn’t exist.” Well, here’s the Bible and there are the Jews and everything the Bible said that would happen to them BEFORE it happened, it’s happening. Why should I doubt what the Bible says about the Jews AFTER it happened?
Just a little bit more. — Adding to the globally massive mistaken identity case is the rest of the Middle-East, taking their turn trying to annihilate the Jews that according to your school of thought are not the real ones. Why? Because a guy called Jacob usurped the birth rights of his older brother, Esau who founded Arabia just to get back at him. And if that wasn’t enough, there’s that other guy Isaac who was not suppose to be the the heir of Abraham, but it should’ve been the Egyptian, Ismael. So, this false story from the Bible is what’s causing our trouble of today threatening global peace? Let alone the fact that if it’s a false story, the Arabs, Egyptians and everybody else are acting out a fabulous fabricated story and continue to act it out in saecula until death. The Persians are another story, but they too think this people are Jews.
It may be we’re living in a fantasy that we can keep up with on the evening news. But if so, how does the fantasy end? Where’d do I personally fit in the story? What does the book say?
If the fantasy is real, your reality is the fantasy. — M.
MEX: “You say that the Jews in Israel today have nothing to do with the 12 tribes,”>>
No, I said: “There is no connection between the modern Israel and the biblical twelve tribes of Judah. It’s just a title, and some people who happen to follow a similar religion.”
I say similar because most Jews are not theist (about 90% of rabbis) and very very few are orthodox and follow anything like the Jews of the Bible 3,000 years ago anyway.
The twelve tribes were “cast to the wind” as you say 2,500 years ago and they have been interbreeding with locals throughout their history (see the Bible). There is now category of “Jewish” “DNA” or “race.” It’s ethnic, cultural with some religion on the side.
MEX; “yet no one in the world can stop calling them Jews.”>>
Anyone can call themselves anything they like. They are no doubt largely descendants of Jews, but so is nearly everyone in the middle east.
MEX: “Hitler was killing them because they were Jews.”>>
Hitler was killing them for your God:
“…I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
“Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews…. The work that Christ started but could not finish, I — Adolf Hitler — will conclude.” –Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
The only person that liked killing Jews more than Hitler, was Yahweh himself. I can bury you in examples. See your Bible.
MEX: “They are convinced they are Jews, live in Israel because they are Jews,”>>
That’s nice. Then they are Jews. None of them can trace themselves to any of the 12 tribes in the Bible.
MEX: “Further, if that is the argument you present to disprove a prophesy, I’d say your creative juices have ran out.”>>
I have no burden to disprove your extraordinary prophecy claims, you have the burden of demonstrating them. And you have failed. Cherry picking vague poetry out of the vast data in the Hebrew Scriptures, after the fact, doesn’t count.
Besides, you have consistently ignored the fact the Bible specifically prophecies that Israel will *not* rise again:
“Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even
a lamentation, O house of Israel. The virgin of Israel
is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon
her land; there is none to raise her up. Amos. 5:1, 2
MEX: “The prophesy states they will rise from dead bones, they will come from all four winds and reconstitute the country again.”>>
a) Amos, in your Bible say it wouldn’t.
b) the modern “Israel” just uses the name traditionally. It has no relation to the biblical Israel supposedly established by Yahweh
continued…
MEX: “That’s a 100% batting average.”>>
Prophecies need be made in advance, not cherry picked after the fact. Show me someone who predicted 150 years ago that Israel would be reconstituted. Then you would at least have something to talk about. Right now you just have a bunch of evangelicals making shit up after the fact. That’s easy to do. See all of the supposed Nostradamus “prophecies.”
MEX: “people from all over the world, make them believe they are Jews,”>>
They are Jews. Are we to be amazed that after 3,000 years, there still are Jews? People make babies and keep religious traditions. It happens. No big deal. Sometimes they even like to name their countries after old names used thousands of years ago. This is to be expected and is not extraordinary in the least.
MEX: “You say to yourself “I’m fine. Not going to hell, because it doesn’t exist.”>>
See the book “The History of Hell.” Hell was made up to scare the children and simpletons. We know when it was made up and we know why. And we know there is no good reason to believe it exists.
The Jews did not believe in an afterlife. As my friend once put it:
“The truth is that when we die our bodies return to the dust from
which they were made, and the breath of life returns to the air
around us (Genesis 3:19, 22-24; Ecclesiastes 3:16-22; etc.). Any
honest physician or veterinarian will tell you the same thing. This is
what God promised to Adam and all his descendants (Genesis 2:7;
3:19). God made it clear that he does not want us to have eternal
life (Genesis 3:22-24). That explains why in the entire Hebrew Bible
(OT) not a single person dies and goes to heaven.” –Ralph Nielsen
MEX: “Well, here’s the Bible and there are the Jews…”>>
That’s great! There are Jews? I am very impressed.
MEX: “and everything the Bible said that would happen to them BEFORE it happened,”>>
Well,
a) except for that bit about it saying Israel would rise no more.
b) the fact that you didn’t predict this beforehand and are data mining after the fact
MEX: “Why should I doubt what the Bible says about the Jews AFTER it happened?”>>
Because you are making stuff up, cherry picking verses and avoiding the ones that contradict what you want to believe. It’s a child’s game. Grow up.
MEX: “trying to annihilate the Jews that according to your school of thought are not the real ones.”>>
I didn’t say they weren’t real Jews. Jewish is used to refer to ethnic, cultural and religious behavior. If you think some of your ancestors were Jews, or practiced the religion, kinda, or you convert to believing some of the religion… then you are a real Jew. Madonna’s a real Jew, I think.
MEX: “a guy called Jacob usurped the birth rights of his older brother, Esau who…>>
That’s all mythology. Not even the conservative branch of Judaism believes that anymore. Likewise, all of the Exodus stories, all made up. Crap. But don’t ask me, as the Jews. See:
New Torah For Modern Minds
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/books/new-torah-for-modern-minds.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
MEX: “Where’d do I personally fit in the story?”>>
You’re just a little bug on a little ball flying through space. You’ve used the crutch of religion to pretend that it was all created for you and you’ve swallowed this story that you have sins to feel guilty and but don’t worry, they have been paid for because a Jewish guy got strung up on a tree 2,000 years ago. It’s all nonsense on stilts. Embarrassing.
D.
Life after death:
The prophet Samuel had a conversation with King Saul after he had died, when he was summoned by the soothsayer. Joshua, Samson’s father, Abraham, Jacob, others had encounters with The Angel of The Lord which were Jesus pre-incarnate visits to them. So, Messiah (although we Christians believe to be God) is eternal (always existed and always will exist).
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father 1 , so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth , it shall die.” – Ezek 18:4.
In Hebrews you find, “It is appointed onto men once to die, and then the judgment.” Death is not annihilation, only liberation from the body.
Josephus explains hell in detail.
Proof of life after death.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
The same as many Christians have misconceptions of Christianity, the Jews had great misconceptions about their religion and Messiah. In Ezekiel 18:4, God straightened up the misconception of sins of the fathers being paid by their children. God explains each one responds for their own sins.
The Jews of Jesus time had 2 or 3 “denominations,” Saducees, Pharisees, and the Zealots. I don’t much about them, but they all had many differences among them.
God created the flesh and breathed life into it.
100% Batting
I stand by that statement. Daniel’s prophesies were on the money 100%.
Nothing like what’s described in Ezekiel 37-39 has occurred, except for the reestablishment of the nation of Israel. Prophesies are expressed in the language of the receiver, but speaking about a time totally unknown to him. Interestingly enough, Israel uses names like Arrow and Chariot for their missiles and tanks. Ezekiel 39 talks about specialists hired for cleanup after the attack and describes flagging of potential hazardous sites for expert to take care of it. Very similar to handling of nuclear situation.
MEX: “The prophet Samuel had a conversation with King Saul after he had died,”>>
No he didn’t, he went to a psychic and the psychic said she could see Saul. A standard parlor trick, still used to fool silly people today. The trouble with claims regarding supposed interaction with the “supernatural” is that besides the fact they can never confirm that they aren’t hallucinating or tricking themselves, they can never confirm that they aren’t being tricked by a demon.
Most Christians know better than to claim that God would use a spirit medium. (Deut 18:10-12), and the Hebrew scriptures clearly state that dead persons are not conscious. (Ecc 9:5)
“In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” Gen. 3:19
“As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.” Job 7:9
“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Psalm 146:3,4
Etc. What part of “his thoughts perish” is giving you difficulty?
MEX: “…others had encounters with The Angel of The Lord which were Jesus pre-incarnate visits to them.”>>
Nonsense. There is no Jesus or anything to do with Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures.
MEX: “So, Messiah… is eternal…”>>
More baseless assertions piled on top of each other.
MEX: “Death is not annihilation, only liberation from the body.”>>
Wrong. The idea of a soul was a later invention Christians stole from the Zoroastrians. No one dies and goes to heaven in the Hebrew Scriptures. One is hard pressed to think of a clearer more exact way of explicitly stating that death is a *complete* cessation of existence or consciousness than this verse:
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun… Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.
Again: There is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom, in the grave, where *you* are going. That’s what your Bible says.
“For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
What scholars say:
“There is no dichotomy of body and soul in the OT. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes, though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person…” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIII, p. 449)
MEX: “Josephus explains hell in detail.”>>
I don’t give a flip what Josephus, in the mid-first century, babbled about a supernatural realm that neither he nor anyone else could know anything about. Josephus lived in superstitious times and believed all sorts of nonsense. Do you also believe:
1) a heifer being led to the altar in the temple gave birth to a lamb?
2) an altar glowed with such brightness the ninth hour of one night that it gave the appearance of daylight for about 30 minutes?
3) a gate to the temple, which was so heavy that 20 men were needed to open and close it, opened of its own accord one night?
4) that the people of Jerusalem saw in the clouds at sunset soldiers and chariots surrounding the city?
Josephus said that all of these things happened (*Wars of the Jews,* 6:5.3), and much more nonsense. Is there anything so stupid and absurd that you won’t believe it if you think it will help you from accepting the reality of your death?
MEX: “Proof of life after death.”>>
This is proof that when people come near death, oxygen deprivation causes them to see funny lights and have altered states of consciousness. This was an interesting topic in the 80′s with Raymond Moody but it’s all been debunked now. Begin here:
http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html
If you have the courage to consider the case against immortality, see here: “The Case Against Immortality”
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html
MEX: “…the Jews had great misconceptions about their religion and Messiah.”>>
But thank goodness they have you, a Christian, to come along and tell the Jews about what their Jewish religion “really” means. Once again we see that the arrogance of Christians is truly boundless.
continued…
MEX: “In Ezekiel 18:4, God straightened up the misconception of sins of the fathers being paid by their children.”>>
Wrong (one of my favorite contradictions btw). God gave flatly contradictory rules about this. Observe:
God does not punish children for the sins of their fathers.
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children,
neither shall the children be put to death for the
fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own
sin. Deut. 24:16
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity
of the father? When the son hath done that which is
lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and
hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that
sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the
iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked
shall be upon him. Ezek. 18:19, 20.
Vs.
God punishes children for the sins of their fathers.
… I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting
the iniquity of the fathers upon the children… Exod. 20:5
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity
and transgression and sin, and that will by no means
clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children, and upon the children’s
children, unto the third and to the fourth
generation. Exod. 34:7 also Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given
great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to
blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee
shall surely die. 2 Sam. 12:14
And the word of the LORD came to Elijah… Seest
thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because
he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the
evil in his days: but in his son’s days will I bring the
evil upon his house. 1 Kings 21:28, 29
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity
of their fathers… Isaiah. 14:21
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and
recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the
bosom of their children after them… Jer. 32:18
MEX: “God explains each one responds for their own sins.”>>
As I show with the above examples, your God is very confused on that issue.
MEX: “The Jews of Jesus time had 2 or 3 “denominations,”… they all had many differences among them.”>>
That’s what happens when you make claims based upon faith rather than reason. Everyone makes up their own versions. Just like you like to do. Hence we have 30,000 divisions of your particular superstition.
MEX: “Daniel’s prophesies were on the money 100%.”>>
Then present one you think you can defend. The fact that modern Christian scholarship understands, for very good reasons, that Daniel was still being written with in 164BC, gets rid of most of your claims to prophecy. The rest is just interpretation games. Lot’s of gibberish and numerology in Daniel.
MEX: “the reestablishment of the nation of Israel.”>>
Your Bible says Israel was to rise no more. Either way, you have a false prophecy.
MEX: “Israel uses names like Arrow and Chariot for their missiles and tanks.”>>
That’s nice. Do try to not be so gullible.
D: Wrong (one of my favorite contradictions btw).
M: Isn’t it a sad commentary to your state of mind stating to have a favorite contradiaction? Is this what you call intellect?
So, when you read, you’re not intent in learning what the writer wants to say, but rather what you want it to say? The verse in Exodus 20:5 talks about the effects of unbelief. Romans 1 expands talking about the social decay that occurs when people do not acknowledge God as Creator. Believers and unbelievers suffer from the iniquities of the greater society. Abortion and godless lifestyles affect all. Exodus 20:5 contains a side comment of the consequences on those who hate Him.
In Deutoronomy, God lays the law of the land and in this particular verse He forbids the death penalty applied to a son for the sin of his father and vice versa. It’s very clear, really. If you wish to receive the context.
Ezekiel does not contradict Deutoronomy or Exodus, as diferrent sins have different consequences in life, but on the soul, there’s only a specific consequence to sin, which is separation from God, which is death (the soul that sinneth, it shall die). Yeah, they’re related, but different conversations.
Each accusation of contradiction can be answered. You could answer them yourself, if you didn’t opt to play dumb. But you’re not interested as you rejoice at any apparent contradiction and rush to point it out without thought or real understanding.
D: The fact that modern Christian scholarship understands, for very good reasons, that Daniel was still being written with in 164BC, gets rid of most of your claims to prophecy.
M: I’ve heard this before and have read detailed, long, and huge, boring explanations of why the attempt to redate Daniel is wrong. This criticism started in the 3rd century, quelched by contemporary writers like Jerome, and revived in the 19th century and continuing. There’s plenty of evidence that Daniel predates Antiochus Epiphanes which is the main reason for the objection. “The accuracy is too much, so it must be after the facts.”
There is plenty external evidence that The Book of Daniel predates Antiochus Epi. Josephus wrote that the Book of Daniel was shown to Alex Great (320 BC). There are certain mistranslations (into Greek) of a number of words that suggest these words being so ancient that their meaning at have been lost by the time of the attempted translation. But regardless of Antiochus, Alexander, or whether the book was written in 500BC or 167BC, the fact remains it was written in BC and contains a more important prophesy which is the birth of the Christ, the Messiah.
D: Your Bible says Israel was to rise no more.
M: I didn’t write “my Bible.” But I accepted because He wrote it for me.
I’ve proven you read out of context and with malice. Ezekiel wrote Israel will be reestablished and it was in 1947. This fact opens up for a number of end-time prophesies yet to be fulfilled, which any man in your position wouldn’t want to be true because of its implications. You have a personal interest in the whole Bible being false because you’ve bet your soul it’s false. Loosing your gamble means eternal hell fire for you.
The sad part is Jesus paid your gambling debt, but you’d rather die the thousand deaths than admitting you’re wrong. We are suffering today the consequences of the sins of our fathers, but we must pay for our own sins, unless we accept the gift, the stretched out arm of Jesus.
M: Isn’t it a sad commentary… to have a favorite contradiaction?”>>
I am a collector of the finest Bible contradictions. Each on is precious in mine eyes.
Mex: “Is this what you call intellect?”>>
It’s called scholarship. The contradictions I refer to have been well known among scholars and the biblical informed, for centuries.
MEX: “The verse in Exodus 20:5 talks about the effects of unbelief.”>>
Nice try. If you would like me to walk you through the Hebrew here, we can do that. Rest assured, when Yahweh “visits” later generations with punishment for the sins of the ancestors, it’s not “about the effects of unbelief.” Perhaps the NIV is more clear for you:
“…he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” Exod. 43:7 (NIV)
MEX: “Romans 1 expands talking about the social decay that occurs…”>>
Sorry, your Bible is much too explicit for your warmed over apologetics. I gave you eight clear examples of your God punishing people for the sins of their ancestors, often with the death penalty That’s what your book says, black and white, plain as day.
MEX: “Exodus 20:5 contains a side comment of the consequences on those who hate Him.”>>
No, Exodus 20:5 says, and means:
“…I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,”
MEX: “In Deutoronomy, God lays the law of the land and in this particular verse…”>>
Deuteronomy 5:9 is identical: “I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,…”
MEX: “Ezekiel does not contradict Deutoronomy or Exodus,”>>
Of course it does, quite perfectly. This is called the evolution of morals. The Bible is a Jewish record of humans slowly working out moral issues pretending it has something to do with a God. Standard anthropology.
MEX: “Each accusation of contradiction can be answered.”>>
Some can, most can’t. Bible contradictions are my specialty. Here’s a simple one that only requires you having the ability to count to two:
a) In Mark and Luke, we have nine references to Jesus asking for and receiving a single donkey (Mark 11:1-4, 7 and Luke 19:28-40).
b) In the Matthew version of the same event we have seven references to Jesus asking for and receiving TWO animals (Matt 21:1-3, 5-7).
We know why the Matthew version added a donkey, the author wanted to fulfill a non-existent prophecy at Zach. 9:9 (a verse the author clearly misread, the author not understanding the Hebrew Parallelism). At least one of these versions is not true. The accounts are contradictory. Jesus either asked for and received one animal, or he asked for and received two animals. This is just one example of more than a hundred that can easily be provided. No Bible scholar takes the notion seriously that the Bible doesn’t contain a multitude of contradictions.
MEX: “you rejoice at any apparent contradiction and rush to point it out without thought…”>>
No, I rejoice in holding beliefs that are true. You rejoice in embracing falsehoods that provide you emotional comfort and fit with your beliefs based on faith.
MEX: “read detailed, long, and huge, boring explanations of why the attempt to redate Daniel is wrong.”>>
Regardless. As usual, I refer to the established, mainstream, peer reviewed, Christian Bible scholarship and you go with fundamentalist assertions that have nothing to do with actual scholarship. The date of Daniel is well known as is the fact that you can’t squeeze any fulfilled prophecies out of it.
MEX: “Daniel… was written in BC and contains a more important prophesy which is the birth of the Christ,”>>
Show this.
MEX: “I’ve proven you read out of context and with malice.”>>
You’ve shown no such thing. And accordingly, you provide no example to support your charge. This is not by accident.
MEX: “Ezekiel wrote Israel will be reestablished and it was in 1947.”>>
The book of Amos says that can’t happen: ” The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise:”
Other than a similar religious heritage, there is no demonstrable connection between the Jews of the Bible and the people who started modern Israel. Not that it would matter if there was. The Bible is filled with plainly false and failed prophecies. See Tyre for instance.
MEX: “a number of end-time prophesies yet to be fulfilled,”>>
In fact all of them, and they were supposed to happen soon, 1,900 years ago. That means they failed. All of them.
MEX: “You have a personal interest in the whole Bible being false because you’ve bet your soul it’s false.”>>
The “whole Bible” isn’t false, just a very large portion of it. I have a personal interest in believing things that are true. You have a personal interest in massaging your fear based, faith based, emotion based superstitions. There is no evidence for a soul. Death is the end just as your Bible clearly says, over and over, as I have already shown.
MEX: “Loosing your gamble means eternal hell fire for you.”>>
I am as afraid of burning in a Christian hell, as you are of burning in a Muslim hell. They have one too. It’s a favorite for scaring the kiddies and gullible but it doesn’t work on people who’ve seen behind the curtain and know precisely how silly your religion is. Note:
“They who believe not shall have garments of fire fitted unto them; boiling water shall be poured on their heads; their bowels shall be dissolved thereby, and also their skins, and they shall be beaten with maces of iron.” -Qur’an, 22:19-21
“The disbelievers say: “Do not listen to this Qur’an, and shout away; you may haply prevail.”
We shall make the disbelievers taste the severest punishment, and retribute them for the worst that they had done. This is the requital for God’s enemies: Hell, where they will have their lasting home, as punishment for denying Our revelations. –Qur’an, Ha Mim As-Sajdah 26-28.
That’s right Mexi, you’ll be roasting in a Muslim hell when you’re wrong because you’ve bet your imaginary soul that you’ve latched on to the right fear based superstition. Oldest trick in the book. And you fell for it.
MEX: “Jesus paid your gambling debt,”>>
I don’t need him to be my scapegoat. I have six goats in my backyard right now and any time I feel sinful I can go back there and put my sins on a goat. Just like in the good old days, the way Yahweh likes it. I could even offer up a burnt sacrifice, because as everyone knows, there is nothing the creator of the universe likes more than the smell of burning goat flesh. Why would we need Jesus when we have all of these goats?
MEX: “you’d rather die… than admit… you’re wrong.”>>
I’ll gladly admit I am wrong. I’ve done it before. After all, I was a Christian, and I was wrong. All you have to do is provide good reasons showing I am wrong. And you can’t do that, because you don’t have good reasons. If there were good reasons, I’d still be a Christian.
D.
————
Men have feverishly conceived a heaven only to find it insipid, and a hell to find it ridiculous. — George Santayana
D: A collector of contradictions…
M: Exactly, and drowning in them.
You know the donkey(s) issue is such petty nonsense.
Matthew does not contradict any of the other gospels. Jesus didn’t ride the two donkeys at the same time, but what if He rode the mother up to Jerusalem and then the donkey during the procession? When Matt says “them” he may’ve been speaking about the garments that were put on the donkeys. Mark and Luke were not present, but Matt may’ve had more details because he was of the twelve and surely an eye witness, whereas Mark and Luke were told or read about it second hand. Either way, this is totally insignificant considering Jesus fulfilled 100% of all Messianic prophesies, regardless of scholar peer review.
It’s the same as the Exodus, Deuteronomy and everything else. You squeeze the pages of the Bible like pimples looking for some dirt without the deeper study.
If small things like these shook your faith, well, then your roots weren’t deep enough to begin with. You are featured in a parable.
There are really no contradictions. None.
And regardless of which kind or flavor of Jews you think should live in Israel, the fact remains, the promised land has its proper name again. This was prophesied along with the ridiculous hatred shown by the Middle East which sets the stage to end-time prohecy.
MEX: “the donkey(s) issue is such petty nonsense.”>>
Excellent, then you won’t have any trouble answering the two questions presented:
1) How many animals did Jesus ask for?
2) How many animals did Jesus receive?
Mark and Luke have nine references to Jesus asking for, and receiving, one donkey (Mark 11:1-4, 7 and Luke 19:28-40).
Matthew’s version of the same event has seven references to Jesus asking, for and receiving, TWO animals (Matt 21:1-3, 5-7).
Unless 1 = 2, you have a problem. Guess what, 1 doesn’t equal 2, and you have a problem. Your God can’t get his story straight. This is one problem of hundreds like it. But you won’t know these problems are there, unless you read your Bible with your brain turned on. Fundie Christians don’t do that.
MEX: “Jesus didn’t ride the two donkeys at the same time,”>>
Whether he wrote one or two at a time, was not the question. But nice attempt at evasion.
MEX: “When Matt says “them” he may’ve been speaking about the garments that were put on the donkeys.”>>
Let’s open the good book and see if your claim could possible make any sense:
“And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem,… then
sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into
the village over against you, and straightway ye shall
find an ass tied, AND A COLT with her: loose THEM, and
bring THEM unto me. And if any man say ought unto
you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of THEM, and
straightway he well send THEM… And the disciples
went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought
the ass, AND THE COLT, and put on THEM their clothes,
and they set him thereon.” Matt 21:1-3, 5-7
Nope. Your claim doesn’t possibly make any sense.
MEX: “Mark and Luke were not present, but Matt may’ve had more details because he was of the twelve and surely an eye witness,”>>
Nonsense. The gospels are anonymous second hand hearsay. They don’t even pretend to be first hand accounts. The names were added over a century later. But this is all irrelevant anyway. Why? Because one does not equal two. That’s why. *Why* your Bible contradicts itself is an interesting question but entirely different from the fact that it does. And this example is one where we have a good understanding of how it happened. The author of Matthew didn’t know his Hebrew well and misunderstood the parallelism in Zech 9:9. He and the other gospelers made these errors over and over. I’ll provide several examples in a post below this one.
MEX: “whereas Mark and Luke were told or read about it second hand.”>>
All of the gospels are second hand. Perhaps you should read your Bible with a little more discernment.
MEX: “this is totally insignificant considering Jesus fulfilled 100% of all Messianic prophesies,”>>
I’ve challenged you to demonstrate one, and you can’t demonstrate one. There’s a good reason for that.
MEX: “regardless of scholar peer review.”>>
Of course you aren’t interested in actual Bible scholarship, it doesn’t agree with your faith based religious beliefs. This is cowardice.
MEX: “You squeeze the pages of the Bible like pimples looking for some dirt without the deeper study.”>>
As I’ve shown, my study goes a lot deeper than yours. And I’ve only scratched the surface.
MEX: “If small things like these shook your faith,…”>>
What shook my faith was learning that “faith” is never a reason to believe something. In fact, it’s the opposite of a good reason. When you have good reasons, you never appeal to faith. People only appeal to faith, when they don’t have any good reason to believe something. That’s what the word actually means:
faith n.
1. unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence
– Webster’s New World Dictionary — Third College Edition
MEX: “There are really no contradictions. None.”>>
Now you’re just being obtuse. Again:
1) How many animals did Jesus ask for?
2) How many animals did Jesus receive?
Is the Mark/Luke version correct, or the Matthew version? You can’t have both, and you need both to have an inerrant Bible.
MEX: “the promised land has its proper name again. This was prophesied…”>>
I’ve already shown you where your Bible prophesied that Israel was to rise no more. Oops.
You’ve consistently ducked and ran from this problem. Typical.
MEX: “which sets the stage to end-time prohecy.”>>
Your end time prophecies were supposed to happen nearly 2,000 years. That’s a really big miss. Utter failure.
D.
——————–
Further explanation of Matthew’s blunder provided in post below.
Further explanation on gospel writers making boo boo’s as they misread their Hebrew (a common problem among Christians even today… sigh):
***
“In talking about two donkeys, Matthew clearly misapplied the Hebrew parallelism in Zechariah Chapter 9. That is why he introduced two donkeys, not because he knew of a second donkey being ridden into Jerusalem by ‘disciples’ (which may or may not be the case).
- the original “prophecy” (in Zechariah) refers to synonymously paralleled animals (“a donkey, and a colt” – Matt 21:5). This is a Hebraism (a Hebrew figure of speech) which actually refers to a single animal. It is very common, and occurs right throughout the poetic and prophetic books.
- whereas the ‘fulfillment’ is literal in having “a donkey” AND “a colt” as two *separate* animals (Matt 21:7).
Therefore, there is no fulfillment at all. Matthew’s rendition of a “donkey AND a colt” is a clear reference, albeit mistakenly, to Zechariah’s single donkey.
Synonymous parallelism is a constant feature of Hebrew poetry. And Zechariah’s reference to “riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey” is a typical example of this particular feature of Hebrew Poetry.
Yet, the writer of Matthew fails to appreciate that Zechariah originally referred to “one animal” utilising poetic parallel designations. Matthew misinterpreted Zechariah. And in misinterpreting Zechariah, Matthew revealed that he had CREATED this account of Jesus entering into Jerusalem. Matthew’s error reveals not only Matthew’s ignorance of Hebrew, but that this is not a ‘fulfilment’ of prophecy. This is merely one writer’s creative telling of a story by using / misinterpreting prophecy.
The failure to recognise synonymous parallelism is actually fairly frequent in the New Testament, and therefore provides contextual support for this interpretation of Matthew. Here’s another couple of examples:
1. In John 19:23-24 “garments” (himatia) and “clothing” (himatismon) are taken as two different items. The “clothing” (himatismon) is narrated as being divided into four parts – one for each soldier. YET, the “garments” (himatia) are narrated as being apportioned by taking lots.
The ‘prophecy’ is taken from Psalm 22 (an infamously miscontrued Psalm by many Christians, since the days of the 4 Evangelists). Psalm 22:18 (being a poem) is a clear example of parallelism. Psalm 22:18 reads “they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots”. Each of the two parallel descriptions tells EXACTLY THE SAME THING: The enemies:
(a) took the Psalmist’s clothes, and
(b) divided them between them.
Yet, ‘John’ failed to realise this fact. So, he narrates the taking of clothes and dividing of them between them TWICE!
2. In Acts 4:25-27 “kings” and “rulers” are treated as different people! The “king” is named as “Herod”, and the “ruler” as Pontius Pilate. Yet, the ‘prophecy’ turns out to be another piece of Hebrew parallelism, this time in Psalm 2:1.
Parallelism runs right the way through the Psalms, yet both the writer of Acts, and ‘John’ simply fail to appreciate this.And, in their ignorance, they misinterpret the Psalms by making a literal translation out of a poetic trope.” –Brendon J.
This is how we know these gospel stories aren’t history, they are religious fictions created… “so you might believe.”
Dear Mexseiko,
I don’t like that a bunch of earlier posts don’t seem to be accessible now, so I have archived, and will continue to archive all of my posts (14,000 words, about 60 pages so far) on our Freethinker forum over here:
“Mexi-Melt… Dar helps a fundie with his Bible”
http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25082#p25082
They will remain there for all time and it will be easier for people to find and learn from the information in the future.
You are welcome to join us over there if you like. Or here is fine, if Phil doesn’t mind.
D.
I’ve read the answers to the donkey “problem” and they’re perfectly plausible to me. You’re hell-bent on disproving the Bible so every little nuisance is gold for you. You treat different points of view and expressions as a catastrophic event destroying the truth of God and gospels. There’s a greater story here that says that Jesus asked for a specific donkey, the disciples went a got, and He rode the animal in the procession. What Matthew wrote does not in any way contradicts the account offered by the other gospels. Even if it did, you still have 3 accounts that do agree, but a mere appearance of discrepancy causes you to throw away the whole lump.
I have visited several of these supposed contradictions and every time I’ve been satisfied with the answers. A quick glance at all 4 account does not produce a controversy as to how many donkeys were involved. Of course, unless I’m looking for trouble. My live experience has shown me how different people focus on different things. If I ask Mary if Bob was at the game, she may answer yes, but if I ask John, he may say yes, he came with his brother William. I wouldn’t go to May to call her a lier. But I guess you would, because you hate Mary anyway.
One thing I gather from my shallow study if the Bible. Adam and Even believed a lie about God and mistrusted Him. That’s what broke the relationship in the beginning. Throughout the whole story of Scripture, everything has been about trust. Trust and believe is the whole theme of the whole Bible. A relationship of trust. Adam and Eve violated 1 rule on mistrust. God pulls a man he judged that would Trust Him and tested Him by promising him a son, delaying the delivery, then asking him to sacrifice that promise back to Him. But then stops the hand before the trusting man obeys, and in the end He offers His own Son to demonstrate His side of the relationship. That’s why faith and trust is a most. If you can’t trust Him, he can’t trust you and given what He invested in the relationship, you are not worthy of the trust. And if you cannot be trusted, then for what good you.
Mexseiko says:
February 21, 2012 at 4:58 AM
I’ve read the answers to the donkey “problem” and they’re perfectly plausible to me.”>>
Well, I am sure that others, like me, aren’t interested in what you are capable of bringing yourself to believe, but rather what you can show. After all, you believe in talking donkeys (and snakes). If you can’t figure out that donkeys can’t talk, why would anyone trust you could know the difference between one or two of them?
MEX: “You’re hell-bent on disproving the Bible…”>>
No, I am hell bent on discovering the truth about such matters. You are hell bent on being intellectually dishonest in order to protect false beliefs that give you emotional comfort.
MEX: “You treat different points of view and expressions as a catastrophic event destroying the truth of God and gospels.”>>
As one fundie apologist correctly put it:
“…if the Biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested.”
–Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Gleason L. Archer (pg. 23)
That’s your problem. We are to believe this book is accurate on all of these extraordinary claims that no one can check, yet as anyone can see, it can’t even get its ordinary claims right on things we CAN check. That’s a fail. I would expect more from inspiration from an almighty God. Your donkey math doesn’t add up.
MEX: “Jesus asked for a specific donkey, the disciples went a got, and He rode the animal in the procession.”>>
Except Matthew, while spinning his tale, in order to fulfill a non-existent prophecy he was too stupid to understand, added another donkey to his yarn. And he got busted. And this isn’t the only time.
MEX: “What Matthew wrote does not in any way contradicts the account offered by the other gospels.”>>
If that were true, and you know it isn’t true, then you should be able to provide the following information (which is included in the accounts) for these two questions:
1) How many animals did Jesus ask for?
2) How many animals did Jesus receive?
MEX: “Even if it did, you still have 3 accounts that do agree,”>>
If you had been reading your Bible with your brain on, you would know that your gospels are filled with such examples, and many of them are on important doctrinal issues. See below.
MEX: “A quick glance at all 4 account does not produce a controversy as to how many donkeys were involved.”>>
Of course it does. That’s why you can’t answer my two questions. Matthew contradicts Mark/Luke.
MEX: “Adam and Even believed a lie about God and mistrusted Him.”>>
Really? What was this lie? You really don’t know anything about your Bible.
“Adam and Eve,” as the story goes, weren’t given the ability to know the difference between right and wrong or good and evil, so why should they (and all of their descendants, talk about punishing the children for the sins of their fathers…) be judged on something they couldn’t possibly have knowledge of? The entire foundation of your religion makes no sense.
MEX: “Trust and believe is the whole theme of the whole Bible.”>>
No, being asked to believe extraordinary nonsensical claims, without good reasons (faith), is the whole theme of the Bible.
MEX: “God pulls a man he judged that would Trust Him and tested Him by promising him a son, delaying the delivery,”>>
Why would your God need to “test” someone? He knows the future and he knows what is in the heart:
God knows the hearts of all men:
…for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. Psalm 44:21
O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me…
thou understand my thought afar off… and art
acquainted with all my ways. Psalm 139:1-3
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which
knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24
Except that he doesn’t:
God does not know (without testing) the hearts of all.
…for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou
hast not witheld thy son, thine only son from me. Gen. 22:12
…the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the
wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to
know what was in thine heart… Deut. 8:2
When you take another group’s religious tales and literalize them, you get nonsense.
MEX: “in the end He offers His own Son to demonstrate His side of the relationship.”>>
Yes, God becomes himself, so he can make a sacrifice to himself, to appease himself, and keep him from punishing all of humanity for all time because someone who couldn’t know any better ate an apple 6,000 years ago from the wrong tree. That makes sense.
You appear to have given up on the donkey problem. That was predictable. It can’t be solved. Let’s consider something else that has modern day effects: Divorce.
The Bible has about six different positions on divorce:
1) Deuteronomy 24:1-2: A man can divorce a woman if “she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her.” She can go remarry.
2) Mark 10:2-12: Jesus states that, while Moses said you can divorce, he says you cannot. So anyone who divorces and remarries is committing adultery. No exceptions.
3) Luke 16:18: Anyone who divorces a spouse and remarries commits adultery. No exceptions.
4) Matthew 5:31-32: Jesus says that you can divorce on the grounds of “fornication,” and those who do may remarry.
5) Romans 7:2-3: St. Paul says a woman can remarry only after her husband is dead.
6) 1 Corinthians: 7:10-11: A woman who leaves her husband must remain unmarried.
So what is THE rule about divorce and remarriage?
No one may ever divorce.
Couples may only divorce on the grounds of fornication.
A man may divorce his wife if she is “unclean.”
Neither party of a divorced couple may remarry.
Either party of a divorced couple may remarry.
A woman who divorces cannot remarry.
A woman who divorces can remarry once her ex-husband is dead.
It must be so nice to have an instruction book from God and have clear answers to these pressing moral questions.
And Mexi tells us there are no Bible contradictions!