NPR Exposes The Lies Of David Barton – Publisher Pulls His New Book!

Post by Phil Ferguson.  Follow me and the blog on Twitter @SkepticMoney.


David Barton is a liar for jesus.  I think of him as a professional liar.

Before we get into this huge story.  You need to know the man!

David Barton is…

 “…an AmericanevangelicalChristian minister,[1]conservativeactivist, and author. He founded WallBuilders, a Texas-based organization which advocates the view that U.S. constitutionalseparation of church and state is a myth.[2][3] Barton is the former co-chair of the Republican Party of Texas.”

He has been making up quotes from the founding fathers for years.  He does not stop there.  He makes up stories about the constitution and how the USA was formed.  (Jim Newman did a great post about him back in May.)

He has a new book – “The Jefferson Lies”. (Forward by Glenn Beck – ack) Like many christians he can’t stand Jefferson.  There is no way to hide the fact that Jefferson was not a christian.  The man rewrote the new testament with all of the magical stuff taken out.

Well Barton has been on tour promoting his book.  He was even on the Daily Show and Jon Stewart treated him with kid gloves.  Jon, you let me down.

NPR’s Barbara Bradley Hagerty has stepped up and bitch slapped Barton!  ‘All Things Considered’ talked about Barton and debunked several of his claims  Check this out…..

David Barton is not a historian. But his version of American history is wildly popular with churches, schools and the GOP. With help from historians Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter, co-authors of Getting Jefferson Right, we fact-checked a few of Barton’s more common claims. Watch video examples of Barton’s messages and see how they compare with the Constitution, historical text and the Bible.

You can get a kindle version of Getting Jefferson Right at Amazon for just $5.

Listen to the show below.  It is only 8 minutes but it is a thing of beauty.


Full transcript is here…

Here is how it starts….

BARBARA BRADLEY HAGERTY, BYLINE: David Barton says Americans have been misled about their history and he aims to change that.

DAVID BARTON: It’s what I would call historical reclamation. We’re just trying to get history back to where it’s accurate. If you’re going to use history, get it right.

HAGERTY: Barton has collected 100,000 documents from before 1812. He says they prove that the Founding Fathers were deeply religious men who built America on Christian ideas. So, for example, you’ve been taught that the Constitution is a secular document. Not so, says David Barton. The Constitution is laced with Biblical quotations.

Here he is on Trinity Broadcasting Network.

BARTON: You look at Article 3, Section 1, the treason clause, direct quote out of the Bible. You look at Article 2, the quote on the president has to be a native born, that is Deuteronomy 17:15, verbatim.

HAGERTY: Uh, no. At least not in any Bible we could find. And the Constitution of 1787 has no mention of God or religion, except to prohibit a religious test for office.

So what about the idea that the Founders did not want government entangled with religion? Wrong again, says Barton.

BARTON: This bible was printed by the U.S. Congress in 1782…

HAGERTY: In this video tour of the U.S. Capitol, Barton claims that the federal government published the first Bible with the idea that it would be used in public schools.

BARTON: And we’re going to be told they don’t want any kind of religion in education, they don’t want voluntary prayer? No, it doesn’t make sense…

HAGERTY: But historians say Congress never published or paid a dime for this Bible. It only agreed to the publisher’s request to have its chaplains check it for accuracy.

Barton is not a historian. He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Christian Education from Oral Roberts University, and runs a company called Wallbuilders in Aledo, Texas. But his vision of a religion-infused America is hugely popular and that makes him a power.

He was named one of Time magazine’s most influential evangelicals. He says he consults for the federal government and state school boards. Politicians seek out his endorsement, including Florida Senator Marco Rubio, who’s mentioned as a possible running mate for Mitt Romney. Newt Gingrich is a fan. So is Mike Huckabee, who expressed this hope at a conference last year.


Below are a few of the videos they talked about and the facts are shown below each video.

Lie #1 – Constitution Taken ‘Verbatim’ From Scripture


“..we could not find a single instance of the Constitution directly quoting the Bible. In Exodus 18:21, Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro, tells Moses to find judges to help him hear disputes brought by people. Elsewhere, Moses appoints judges, not lawmakers.”

Lie #2 – Most Founding Fathers Had Bible Or Seminary Degrees


“[Of the] 56 who signed the Declaration, 29 actually held seminary degrees … more than half of them held Bible school degrees,” Barton says. To clarify, in the early days of the nation, a “seminary” degree meant a college or university degree, or had some formal schooling. It did not mean a Bible school degree. Only one of the signers, John Witherspoon, had a divinity degree and was trained as a minister.


Lie #3 – Congress Funded Religion And Printed The Bible


Showing a Bible in this video, Barton says, “This is a copy of what the first Bible printed in English in America looked like. This Bible was printed by the U.S. Congress in 1782.” Historians say this Bible was actually published by Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken. Congress neither published it nor paid for it to be published. At Aitken’s request, Congress did agree to have its chaplains check the Bible for accuracy. Congress did not recommend that the Bible be used in public schools; that quote was written by Aitken in a letter to Congress.


Lie #4 – Law Meant To Eliminate Homosexuals


Barton’s take: “The Bible says the law is made to regulate sexual immorality, whether it’s homosexual or whatever. … The Supreme Court said, ‘Oh, all those laws have to go away because we disagree with them.’ I don’t care what the Supreme Court says. God has made it clear what is right or wrong in his scripture.” This video is an example of Barton’s view that the Supreme Court has thwarted the biblical ideals on which, he says, the Constitution is based. He also believes the court misinterpreted Jefferson’s “wall of separation” between church and state in 1947, and that the founders intended the wall to protect religion from government, not curb religious expression. He has stated that since the Supreme Court removed prayer and Bibles from public schools in 1962 and 1963, America has been in steep decline: SAT scores have dropped, and teen pregnancy, the divorce rate and violent crime has skyrocketed. But he fails to make the distinction between correlation and causation.


Lie #4 – America ‘Was And Is’ A Christian Nation


“….by “Christian nation,” he does not mean a theocracy or state in which Christians have more rights. Rather, he means a nation built on Christian ideas. However, he implies in this and many other videos that the Constitution incorporates the Declaration of Independence, and thus, the Constitution is based on biblical principles. On the contrary, say historians, the founders wrote an explicitly secular document. The only mention of religion in the Constitution as written in 1787 is exclusionary: Article VI says there shall be “no religious test” for office. (The First Amendment does mention religion.)”


Barton does not limit his lies to the founding of America….

  • The Southern Poverty Law Center called him a “domestic terrorist.” Nope.
  • There are no grocery stores within the city of Detroit. Wrong.
  • An elementary school student was yelled at for praying before lunch.  Didn’t happen.
  • Mentions of Jesus were banned at military funerals.  Not quite.
  • Hate Crimes legislation was designed to imprison pastors. Please.
  • Abstinence will make you richer.  Guess again.
  • God created our system of elected government. Nice try.

Now we have breaking news!

The Thomas Nelson publishing company has decided to cease publication and distribution of David Barton’s controversial book, The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You’ve Always Believed about Thomas Jefferson, saying it has “lost confidence in the book’s details.”

Casey Francis Harrell, Thomas Nelson’s director of corporate communications, told me the publishing house “was contacted by a number of people expressing concerns about [The Jefferson Lies].” The company began to evaluate the criticisms, Harrell said, and “in the course of our review learned that there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported. Because of these deficiencies we decided that it was in the best interest of our readers to stop the publication and distribution.”

Damn!  David is gonna be pissed!

It is about time this Liar is exposed and safely removed from the public discourse.

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35 Responses to NPR Exposes The Lies Of David Barton – Publisher Pulls His New Book!

  1. Darrel says:

    “The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.”
    –Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

    And that’s what he did when he made his Jefferson Bible, he took some secular diamonds out and throw away the miraculous stuff, the dung, which was over 90%.

  2. Larry Johnston says:

    Jesus still sells!

  3. Robyn says:

    He also does a great job landscaping my yard.

  4. Rene says:

    Lying to promote your particular version of Christianity or government is nothing new. The history of Christianity is littered with characters that have gone to extreme lengths to denounce those that called them out for their lying and totally made up interpretations of scripture (see: Jesus Wars).

  5. James Smith says:

    So we have a “christian” who is a liar and a con artists. Why is this news? The religion is founded upon lies and has continued to lie to this day. Is it a surprise that it attracts liars? Not even their jesus was real. Here;s a quote from a biblical scholar:

    As stated by Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of religious studies at the University of North Caroline, Chapel Hill, NC said, “In the entire first Christian century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman scholar, politician, philosopher, or poet. His name never appears in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references!”

    No one has ever found a single contemporary reference to any jesus. I have challenged many to do so but never has anyone been able to do it.

  6. Phil says:

    a christian liar is not news. The fact that a major media outlet actually stood up and said so is news. For more than 30 years virtually all media has be afraid to say anything bad about almost any christian.

    Here is hoping there is more of this to come.

  7. Jim n says:

    Yeah, what’s cool is that a Christisn publisher pulled the book because it was too bullshit for even them to publish without losing credibility. Those who bothered to write denouncing Barton’s accuracy deserve a free lunch. It’s a rate event when the Christisns diss their own.

  8. Denis says:

    We have someone writing a fairy story about a fairy story.

    As others have indicated, why is this news ? Why is this even surprising ?

  9. James Smith says:

    As Phil says, the news part is that major media outlets have called him on his les and proved they were lies. His publisher has even stopped backing his beek even though it would sell anyway and they lose their profit.

    Those things are news.

  10. Vonnie says:

    My mother swears by Barton, and I guarantee that this will be labeled a “liberal conspiracy” to quiet the truth, and discredit Christians. I’ve actually emailed a couple of famous historians (who shall remain nameless) and asked them to comment on Barton’s fantasies, but none of them answered. I’m so glad he’s getting his due!

  11. James Smith says:

    Yep, he’s getting his due! He’s being exposed as the lying hypocrite that he has always been.

  12. mayhem says:

    Racism is funny

  13. james says:

    Not much of a surprise.

    I find lies on both sides of the isle, anytime someone is more agenda driven then truth driven that is what happens.
    After all we have people still trying to push Darwinism when he himself would most likely not be pushing it with what we know today about DNA & Cell structures. On the other side of the fence we have guys like Barton pushing his agenda.

  14. james says:

    I believe their is a difference between dissing your own and desiring truth. It would be nice if both sides desired truth over being right. There are plenty of lies on both sides to go around.

  15. james says:

    Hope you are willing to face the facts when the presented because I’ve done much homework on this.Skeptics like yourself will often charge “you cannot prove that Jesus really existed…” But wait! This is not the believer’s burden to prove! No academic scholar or real historian takes the Jesus-Myth theory seriously, and no historian can ‘prove’ that anyone existed. All history is basically a matter of probability based upon best guess from documentary sources. The existence of Jesus has been accepted by history for centuries. IT is the skeptic’s burden to overturn that presumption and prove that Jesus didn’t exist!
    Be that as it may the skeptics have a way of repeating the same notes with great verity and so it seems as though they have quite a bit of evidence. Let’s examine the documentation more closely.
    I. The Secular Sources and How Historians View Them.
    A. Several Extra-Biblical records
    1)Skeptics will often alledge that “no extra biblical evidence for Jesus’ existence exists.” This is far from the truth. All of these following historians, of first and early second century, mention Jesus of Nazareth as a historical figure who existed in the first century CE, or they mention Christ.
    * Thallus (c. 50-75AD)

    *Phlegon (First century)

    * Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)

    * Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)

    * Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)

    * Galen (various writings, c.150)

    * Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).

    * Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)

    * Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)

    *Lucian (Second century)

    *Numenius (Second cent.)

    *Galerius (Second Cent.)
    No one ever questioned Jesus’ existence until the 19th century. Not one of his opponents from the first 19 centuries ever questioned that he really existed!

  16. Phil says:

    “Not much of a surprise.”
    A lying christian? you are so right!

    “I find lies on both sides of the isle,”
    What isle? Dave Barton v. Reality?

    “anytime someone is more agenda driven then truth driven that is what happens.”
    True. Just look at the post above. The is someone that thinks jesus is real.

    “After all we have people still trying to push Darwinism”
    What is “Darwinism”? Evolution? Why create a new word for it?

    “when he himself would most likely not be pushing it”
    No one is pushing it. Just like no one is “pushing” gravity. where do you get these crazy ideas.

    “…with what we know today about DNA & Cell structures.”
    Uh… ok let takes science and say it say the opposite of what it actually says because I have and agenda. Please reference the third quote from you above.

    On the other side of the fence we have guys like Barton pushing his agenda.
    Is it an Isle or a fence? There are two sides Barton – Reality!

  17. James Smith says:

    Quite frankly, you are either another liar, or so hopelessly deluded that you are beyond help.

    Even you say in your own post that all of your references are from a time decades after the jesus myth. Josephus, for example, was not even born until 36 or 37 CE. It is reasonable to think he didn’t start writing for at least another decade or two. There is not a single reference to any jesus by a contemporary. Here are a couple of references of my own.

    As stated by Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of religious studies at the University of North Caroline, Chapel Hill, NC said, “In the entire first Christian century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman scholar, politician, philosopher, or poet. His name never appears in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references!”

    Here are a few notable events in the “life” of jesus”

    Herod’s slaughter of all the baby boys in Bethlehem

    jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem where the entire town welcomes him as their king

    Jesus casting out the greedy money changers (in an area about the size of 34 football fields)

    Two earthquakes hit Jerusalem

    Supernatural darkness covers “all the land” for hours

    The sacred temple curtain tears from top to bottom

    All of the dead holy men in the cemetery come out of their graves and wander Jerusalem, “appearing to many.”

    Yet, contemporary historians at the time of jesus didn’t write about any of this.

    Finally, from my personal research:

    In the case of the historical Jesus, there is not one contemporary record of his existence. The Romans, who otherwise kept very good records never mentioned a figure who was supposed to be socially, politically, and spiritually so significant as well as publicly performing many miracles; then was executed after a very public trial.

    Not until the Gospel of Mark, written from 40 to over 100 years after the supposed crucifixion, (depending upon which biblical scholar you choose to believe) is there any mention of Jesus. If we look at the fables of Horus, Attis, and Mithra, we see amazing similarities. Born in low circumstances on December 25, 12 followers, executed at an early age, son of a god, the list goes on. It would appear that the early church, in need of a powerful central figure, “borrowed” from earlier myths to create a rallying point for their religion.

    Despite what you say, you are the one making the positive claim and the burden of proof does rest with you. You must show proof of the existence of any jesus.

    You say, “no historian can prove that anyone existed.” How absurd. Then you are saying that no historian can prove George Washington existed? The difference is, contemporary accounts and multiple records do exist for George W. These records can be verified and proven beyond doubt. You must provide similar proof of your claims. I suspect you will ignore that challenge and then declare, “Victory through the power of christ!”

    Your statements would be laughable if you were not so sincere.

  18. Phil says:

    @James Smith,
    That was a thing of beauty.

  19. James Smith says:

    Thanks, Phil. I have to admit, it would be more fun if it were not so easy. Even so, letting absurd posts like that pass unchallenged would be wrong. “Not to condemn is to condone.”

    In a way, I feel a bit sorry for that poster. As I said, I believe him to be sincere, but deluded beyond any hope of retrieval into the realm of the rational.

    Someone, I forget who now, said, “Debating a theist is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how well you play chess, the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and then strut around as if it had won.” I have never seen or heard a better analogy of debating someone who has long ago rejected facts and rational thinking.

  20. james says:

    I would share with you a book load of examples if I thought you had the ears & eyes to see but you are obviously driven more by emotion an hatred than a desire to know truth. BTW: It’s obvious Jesus lived, (to say he didn’t would be like saying George Washington never lived they are both well documented) not is he who he claims to be is the question you must figure out.

  21. James Smith says:

    Share your examples. So far, I’ve disproven everything you said.

    I am not driven by hatred but by truth. That’s something you disdain along with rational thinking. But those are both fatal to any religion, so I expected that.

    Hoe is it obvious that jesus lived? Because you desperately want to believe it? George Washington is well-documentd by contemporaries. You ignored my request to show one contemporary account of jesus. I expected that, too. I have been researching this for over 50 years and have yet to find any such account or heard from anyone that has.

    The question you must figure out is why are you so determined to believe something for which there is not a single bit of supporting evidence and much evidence against it?

    Again, trot out your proof. As I have often said, if presented with undeniable evidence, I would change my position. What would it take for you to change your position? Apparently no evidence would be enough, myths and outright lies are preferable to facts? Remember, “The truth shall set you free.” Sound familiar?

  22. Phil says:

    I just can’t get past how funny it is that you post lies on a post about how Christian lie and make things up. You were just schooled on why all the stuff you posted before was wrong…..why would anyone want a whole book full of that shit.

    Instead of making ludicrous comparisons with an actual person and making claims that we don’t have eyes and ears why don’t you pick just one of your previous claims – just one – and try to support it in your own words. I dare you.

    Don’t forget the bible says you must always be ready to defend your faith. 1 Peter 3:15. Good luck and may the force be with you.

  23. james says:

    I’ll repeat some information for clarification purposes.

    Even though the Bible itself is a collection of historical facts that have been verified by archeology and paleontology (which of course you have the right to deny because it doesn’t match with you way of thinking), I will restrict our article on the written human records of Jesus Christ’s authenticity and historicity. I’ll try to make it more clear for you this time since there are so many historians that have written about Jesus Christ that it would be impossible to include them all here. The fact is there are so many that these historians testimonies would have to be expanded into a major, voluminous book. For time’s sake, we will restrict historical evidence to those major historians that have the greatest authenticity.
    Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus in his writings….even though his writings are so ancient, that no copies exist but those of Julius Africanus, whose writings were around AD 221 quotes Thallus. Thallus and Africanus both mention a strange darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion. And these stories of a “strange darkness” were written about far and wide on the earth. They all coincided with around AD 32-33. This written record of Thallus confirms that Jesus lived, and was crucified and that something highly unusual and unexplainable happened on that day. There were many reports of various earthquakes, destruction, and a strange darkness that occurred around AD 32-32.
    Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronological history around AD 140. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it, but even more interestingly, he mentions Jesus’ ability to foresee the future in describing the life of our Savior.
    Now Did Ancient Historians Believe in the Actual Person of Jesus Christ?
    Josephus (AD 37 – c. 100), born of a priestly and royal ancestry, survived and recorded the destruction ofJerusalemin AD 70. He was a child prodigy. At age 13, he was already a consultant for the Jewish rabbis, by 16 he became a Galilean military commander and a Roman Citizen. And being under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, he was allowed to write a first-century history of the Jews. Being a devout Jew and Roman Citizen, Josephus could hardly be described as a hostile witness. He wrote more about Kings than Messiah’s, but Josephus makes references to the Sadducees, the names of Jewish High Priests of the time, the Pharisees and the Essenes, the Herodian Temple, Quirinius’ census and the Zealots. Josephus also wrote of such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and about Jesus. All these names were those found in the New Testament. He even describes the death of John the Baptist and mentions the execution of the apostle James, the brother of Jesus. In Josephus’ final passage he writes that Jesus was a wise man and the Messiah, and there is even a highly accurate retelling of the resurrection story!
    One of the most intriguing entries was recorded in Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews (18.63-64; 3.3): “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
    The interesting thing is that the historian Origen states that Josephus was not a believer in Jesus as the Christ. There is no evidence that he ever accepted Jesus as Christ as Lord and Savior, but Josephus’ declares this Jesus to be Christ (in the Testimonium). The manuscript evidence in support of the iron-clad, “pre-accretions” reference to Jesus in Josephus is very strong and accepted by the great majority of professional historians. From the readings of Josephus, there is no serious reason to doubt the historical evidence of the existence of the Jesus of Nazareth.
    Now Let’s Ask Can Historical Evidence About Jesus Christ’s Existence Be Believed?
    Even the non-Jewish historical sources of the time mention Jesus and it is nearly universal. There was a common knowledge of Jesus’ life and death among the people in the first few centuries. The list of historians are enormous: Tacitus (Annals, AD 115-120), Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, AD 125), Lucian (mid-2nd century), Galen (AD 150; De pulsuum differentiis 2.4; 3.3) Celsus (True Discourse, AD 170), Mara Bar Serapion (pre AD-200?), and the Jewish Talmudic References (AD 300) (I know your argument will be a repeat of the same but, but they are not all 1st Century).
    Jesus historicity and story became known from the Mediterranean to Africa; from Asia-Minor and into most of the known world at the time. One example was around AD 70, when a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compares the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. He used Him as an example of being persecuted for his beliefs. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. It should not surprise us that Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King” and Jesus was held in high esteem in most of the known-world religions, save Judaism.
    Additionally, there were historians like Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Eusebius of Caesarea, that latter of which was a third century theologian who used the library in Caesarea for much of his research. Tertullian wrote about Christian worship and persecution that is consistent with New Testament accounts. Justin Martyr, a Gentile who lived in Palestine and later became a Christian, records the many doctrines of the church, like the Sacraments, Salvation, and many others. Philo, who wrote “Resources for Philo of Alexandria” was a Jewish philosopher and historian that lived in the first century.
    As we have seen and read, Jesus’ existence is historically indisputable. There are no other humans who have ever lived on earth that more has been written about that establishes these facts: that He did exist, that He did many wonders, that He did die from crucifixion, that He did rise again and was seen by hundreds, that He was known as the Messiah, and as The Christ. This man and His story….is History, incontrovertibly and indisputably.
    BTW; Nobody is saying he was born on the 25th of December, yes it is a day that is used for rememberance but most do not believe it is the actual date (when I say most I’m referring to those who have done their homework don’t get stuck on little tied up on little things that are actually irrelevant to the discussion). I could take you to the Middle East & Asia (where I actually lived) and provide you with records that they even have regarding the validity of what the scriptures have already said (interesting how you try to debunk the bible when in fact no other book probably provides better details of historical events and yes it remains accurate under all the scrutiny and no I’m not a theologian I’m someone who loves history). I personally have had skewed views as well but I let evidence & truth speak for themselves and I try not to be so proud within my own knowledge as to think I have all the answers because I’m positive I don’t.

  24. james says:

    Hi James,

    This may not be something you want to read but I thought I would share it anyway from one person to another who loves history (hope you don’t mind) this here was not my research but I have looked into it as well.

    Evidence for the Resurrection

    The great lineage of Jesus Christ is recorded at the beginning of Luke. The names of all these men are historical facts, even the census that Joseph and Mary had to travel to Bethlehem to take was registered in the king’s census (Luke 2:1-5). Thousands upon thousands of witnesses not only knew Jesus by sight, but they acknowledged that He was the Messiah and related to King David’s lineage (Luke 1:1-10, 18:35-43). Even the Chief Priests, Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees said as much and that Jesus told the truth. Many of these religious rulers knew He was from God but for fear of losing their authority and positions, conspired to kill Him anyway (Luke 20:20-26, 19:28-40, 20:20-26).

    In any court of law, witnesses are invaluable. In the whole of Judea and Samaria, there were several hundred of witnesses who saw Jesus before and after His crucifixion (Luke 24:15-24, Act 1:3-4, 2:31-32, 9:3, 17, I Cor 15:4-8, 9:1, II Pet 1:16-21, Jhn 3:2, 15:27, I Jhn 1:1-3, 14). Hundreds more saw the empty tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, which Joseph had given for Jesus’ burial site.

    The knowledge of Jesus’ crucifixion, burial and resurrection was so important to the early church within three to eight years after His death, a Creed was created. The Creed’s purpose was intended to protect these eye witness’s accounts and codify their testimonies accurately, both for present and future generations. Within a few years, some churches had already been infiltrated with other doctrines like the Gnosticism. The Gnostics felt it was through knowledge that salvation comes and was only for a special few. The Creed announces to everyone publicly that the only way to salvation is only through Jesus. The Creed has grown in two thousand years, yet its basic tenets have not. It has grown only to resist un-sound doctrines and so has acted as a hedge against heresy and other (false) gospels. The Creed was not written from a blind-faith perspective or suppositions, but from witnesses who have seen proof with their own eyes. Most people would live for a lie, few would die for one. Especially one that they knew was not true.

    One of the world’s foremost experts in lines of evidence was Simon Greenleaf, an American attorney and jurist (1783-1853). In his book the “Testimony of the Evangelists”, he views the multiple eye-witness accounts of Jesus and His death and resurrection (in the New Testament) as valid lines of evidence that would be admissible in a court of law. They meet or exceed evidential requirements, so much so that Greenleaf saw the “martyrdoms, exponential church growth and the persistent-through-persecution faith of the believers (often, even up to death), as solid as evidence that there can possibly be. And in the legal process, there is no statue of limitations for murder.

    The world’s most famous ex-atheist is Antony Flew, a leading British philosopher, who after 50 years of atheism, came to the conclusion that God must exist, saying “The evidence for the resurrection alone is better than for claimed miracles of all other religions. There leaders are buried and still in their graves. Jesus tomb was found empty!

  25. James Smith says:

    First, if you learned to use paragraphs, your posts would not appear to have been written by an unschooled cretin.

    Next, yes the babb;e does contain historically verifiable events and places. Does that make the rest of it true? Not at all. Here’s a contemporary example for you.

    On the 11th of September, 2001, two commercial aircraft flew into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing thousands.

    Some people believe that this was an act of terrorism by an Islamic fundamentalist organization.

    It was really the power of my god (he who must not be named) directing those planes to warn the people of the USA and the world to abandon their wicked ways and praise the only true god.

    The first sentence is unquestionable historic fact. The last sentence is a delusional lie but is impossible to prove to be false. The “truth” of all “holy books” is based upon this same technique.

    Next, you claim you have many verifiable examples, yet you fail to give even one. Your “eyewitness accounts,” to use the legal analogy you like, are nothing but here say. I have asked you repeatedly to give a verifiable contemporary account and every time you give something written decades or even hundreds of years later. You give unverifiable babble verses that were also written decades or hundreds of years later. Do you have any idea of how much this damages your credibility and your intellectual image? Probably not. You believe what you want to believe because to not believe would cause you to have to reconsider your position. Remember I asked you what it would take to get you to do that? You did evade that direct question, too. But I think we already have the answer. You would have to learn to recognize facts and separate wishful thinking from reality.

    As always, you do not give a single fact. You have produced nothing that any decent attorney would blush to try to introduce in court, to use your legal analogy again.

    I strongly suggest that, before you post again, you attempt to produce some evidence that can be verified by even the most skeptical. Yes, I know “you must have faith.” You might also want to read my essay on that very subject.

    It also points out why it is good to be skeptical and request verifiable proof.

  26. James Smith says:

    As always you give babble verses as “proof” The babble has been shown to be exactly that, a collection of badly-translated, politically edited myths and outright lies. Having a few historically verifiable dates and places included does not make anything else true, as I showed in a previous post.

    You keep trying, but it’s always the same feeble effort; unprovable citations, babble verses, and smug accusations that I do not have “ears and eyes” to understand. You also accuse me of being driven by emotion and hatred when I have done nothing to indicate either. Why is it that, whenever hatred, violence, and emotion are used in a discussion, it is always a “good christian” that introduces them?

    When are you going to ask me the old saw, “why do I hate god?” I’ll pre-empt that one. How can I hate something that does not and never has existed? Do environmentalists hate Paul Bunyan for cutting down all those trees?

    They should, he’s just as real as your jesus. There is as much verifiable and far more recent evidence of his existence than there is for any jesus.

  27. james says:

    I know why you call it babble because it would mean you would have to take a second look at what you believe (and pride will keep you from doing that). It would also mean you have to admit you are accountable to someone other than yourself (that would face you with the fact that life doesn’t end at death). How much easier could Christ have made it He allows you a choice (of course doesn’t force you to make it which is the reason you can also deny Him).

    Also, rather i misspell every word or not use the correct punctuation it still doesn’t take away the truth of what is shared. I’ve been in your shoes but the mountain of evidence show the validity of NOTonly Christ coming to this earth but the bible has a whole cannot be denied (well it can but if someone is truly being honest). I made not explain things very well and for that I apologize but there are much better researchers in this field both secular and biblical that provide much more evidence of not only Jesus but the bible as a whole. All those are words the nothing can take away from the way he has personally changed my life.
    I apologize for saying you have hatred and agree with you that distracts from what the conversation is really about.

    My search for God started with me having no doubt there was evil (I just had to look in the mirror to see how bad that could be at times).

    The most well kept historical documents we have but since it doesn’t match your atheist view you ignore it. Nice!!
    There are currently more than 3,000 extant Hebrew manuscripts from the OT, about 8,000 in the Latin Vulgate and more than 1,500 from the Septuagint (Greek OT translated around 200 B.C.). More than 200 of the extant Hebrew manuscripts date as far back as 250 B.C. [ESV 2586]. Out of all these manuscripts, all agree with each other, in that the meaning of the texts don’t change or contradict. Areas where wording differs is very minimal, (less than one percent), “and even among that 1 percent there are no variants that would change any part of the doctrine” (2587). The sheer quantity of these texts alone is a remarkable testimony that the Word has been accurately passed down.

    Since the NT was written later, those manuscripts are even more prevalent. There are more than 5,700 extant Greek NT manuscripts, some of them are fragments dating so far back the authors who wrote them were possibly still alive when they were copied (second century A.D.). Also, there are nearly 25,000 NT manuscripts available in other ancient languages. The ESV Study Bible notes that “if all these were destroyed, the NT text could be reproduced almost in its entirety by quotations of it in sermons, tracts and commentaries written by ancient teachers” (2587). This not only shows that it was well preserved, but that it was considered holy writ by the contemporaries of the authors.

    In fact, the high view of scripture is one of the reasons it is so well preserved. Those who copied the OT (scribes) made a whole career just out of meticulously copying and preserving the OT. When scrolls wore out, they expressed reverence by having a ritual burial for them (2585). The exactness of the scriptures was taken very seriously, and not treated as some sort of bedtime tale.

    The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls is good evidence for the near perfection of scripture preservation. Before they were discovered in 1947, the Masoretic texts were the oldest extant OT Manuscripts, dating back to 1008 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls represent more than a thousand-year gap, and when compared to Dead Sea Scrolls scholars found Masoretic texts to be “very accurate” (2586).

    Compared to classical ancient manuscripts, the Bible far exceeds them in number and proximity to original manuscripts. The average number of manuscripts from ancient Greek or Latin authors is less than twenty! (2587). Also, the average extant classical manuscripts are more than 500 years separated from the original writing. But there are extant NT manuscripts only seventy years separated from original writings (this is a conservative estimate) [2588].

  28. James Smith says:

    I call it babble because that’s exactly what it is. FYI, I have probably read it far more than you have. The difference is, I read it objectively with no pre-disposition to regard it as the “holy word of god.” If you were able to do that, you’d see the many contradictions, errors of face, and outright lies.

    As always, I ask for proof and you respond with more babble verses. It doesn’t matter how many ancient texts you claim or how many times you cite them. That doesn’t make them true. You seem to be unable to comprehend the very concept of truth and verifiable evidence.

    Your replies a long and boring. THey do not contain anything of value to prove your beliefs. That’s not surprising because there is not proof. All there are are the delusional maundering of your mind.

    For your edification, here are just a few of the biblical contradictions I have collected. I also have many more and examples of atrocities committed in the name of your “god.”

    Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.
    James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Exodus 20:5  For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
    Ezekiel 18:20  The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…

    James 1:13  Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
    Genesis 22:1  And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.

    Romans 15:33  Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
    Exodus 15:3  The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

    John 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.
    Matthew 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

    Matthew 5:22  Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. (Words of Jesus.)
    Matthew 23:17  Ye fools and blind. (Words of Jesus.)

    John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time.
    Exodus 33:20  Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father.
    1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time.

    Genesis 32:30  For I have seen God face to face.
    Exodus 33:11  And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
    Isaiah 6:1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    Job 42:5  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

    THose are but a small sample. I have many more and I also have some of the many failed prophesies. All of these are taken from your own bible. I am sure you will tell me that they are “misinterpreted.” Then also explain why, if the babble is the “divinely inspired word of god” it has to be “interpreted” by mere humans? One would think that an omnipotent god could transmit his words so they are unambiguous and need no clarification by humans.

    The babble was written by men who apparently did not bother to cross check each other to avoid things like blatant contradictions and obvious errors of fact.

    But all of this is simply rational thinking and statements of observed facts. Rational thinking and facts are always fatal to any religion.

  29. Thanks a good deal for discussing this matter. I concur together with your conclusions. The points that the data stated are all initial hand on real experiences even aid more.

  30. James Smith says:

    Exactly where have I lied? Are you saying the babble verses I gave are not real? Are you saying there are contemporary accounts of jesus and that there are none of George Washington?

    I have supported my claims in my own words, here’s another.

    In the case of the historical Jesus, there is not one contemporary record of his existence. The Romans, who otherwise kept very good records never mentioned a figure who was supposed to be socially, politically, and spiritually so significant as well as publicly performing many miracles; then was executed after a very public trial.

    Not until the Gospel of Mark, written from 40 to over 100 years after the supposed crucifixion, (depending upon which biblical scholar you choose to believe) is there any mention of Jesus. If we look at the fables of Horus, Attis, and Mithra, we see amazing similarities. Born in low circumstances on December 25, 12 followers, executed at an early age, son of a god, the list goes on. It would appear that the early church, in need of a powerful central figure, “borrowed” from earlier myths to create a rallying point for their religion.

    Would you like more? I have many. Now, it’s your turn. Prove one thing I have posted is not true or one thing you have posted is true. Using bible verses to prove the bible is so ludicrously ignorant, I am always amazed one someone shows such determined ignorance and tries it. Defend your faith. Go ahead. Prove any of it is true. It’s a business, after all. Haven’t you heard of “Truth in advertising?” If religions were held to that, they would disappear.

    I say you are a liar because you make accusations without attempting to provide proof. But then, I have never met a christian who was not a liar, a fool, or a hypocrite. Often, they are all three at the same time.

  31. Phil Ferguson says:

    James Smith….
    I’m with you! My comment was not calling you a liar. I agree with you. My comment was a response to “james”.

  32. James Smith says:

    Ha! Who would have thought that having an uncommon first name like “James” could lead to confusion? 😀

    Thanks for straightening that out.

  33. Phil Ferguson says:

    James smith! It’s all good. Keep up the passion! and make more comments 😉

  34. James Smith says:

    The other “james” I notice, has not responded in any way. That is so typical of theists when they are presented with questions or facts they cannot or don’t want to acknowledge. Just pretend it didn’t happen and declare “Victory! In the name of (insert improbable deity)!”

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