Nuance In The Mormon Church
Posted by Kenna on December 10th, 2012 – 8 Comments – Posted in Bible, Church and State, gay rights, Mormon, politics, religion, UncategorizedI grew up in a small town with a lot of bible-believing religions in it, including a pretty big group of Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Evangelicals. I had a lot of LDS friends growing up and it wasn’t until college that I started to realize that Mormons weren’t as common as I’d thought. The Mormons I know are pretty chill and wonderful people. They’d never abandon a gay family member and they’re usually game for any of my odd questions about Mormonism. And they like The Book of Mormon: The Musical.
In college, though, I ran into more and more people that thought all Mormons were anti gay and extremely secretive. Then Prop 8 happened and I didn’t know what was happening anymore. A couple Mormon friends and I put together a FAQ about this new website and the Mormon perspective on homosexuality. You’ll probably find the answers to be conservative, but give it a read anyway. There’s things here that you probably haven’t heard before and many news sites a
Image from Mormon Meme Tumblr
ren’t reporting on. You should always get your information from the source.
“Why are Mormons so secretive?”
They’re not secretive, they’re just uncommon. You probably just don’t know any. The next time you get some Mormon missionaries at your door, ask away. Also, the Mormon Churches (but not the temples. Temples are members-only.) are always open to the public, so feel free to drop in and get some of those questions answered. Pro-tip: don’t open with “what’s up with Magic Underwear?” or “I heard that during the temple marriage ceremonies that …” Those sorts of things either a) aren’t true or b) super holy things that aren’t proper to discuss with non-members. Do ask about polygamy though. Always ask about the polygamy. They’re very eager for that rumor to be settled down.
“Are Mormons polygamous?”
Nope. Not since the wild, wild, west days. They can tell you all about it though. (Fun side fact: one of my ancestors was Ann Eliza Webb, so I could also tell you all about it, but that’s for another time.)
“Are Mormons anti-gay?”
To Mormons, being gay isn’t a choice. You’re born that way. It can’t be helped. Homosexual urges are normal and sin-free, but acting on them is a sin because any sort of sex outside of marriage is a sin.
“Are Mormons anti-gay marriage?”
Mormons across the board are anti-gay marriage in a Mormon temple. If secular people or non-mormon people want to get gay-married outside of a Mormon temple, that’s their choice and most Mormons don’t really care. But if you want a Mormon wedding at the local temple, God says that proper Mormon weddings are between a man and a women.
“Can Mormons have gay relationships outside of marriage?”
Mormons shouldn’t have sex outside of marriage. Even though the book of Mormon doesn’t specifically talk about homosexual relations, the Book of Mormon is very clear about chastity before marriage and about fidelity to your wife.
“Mormons sound really conservative.”
Yes. Yes they are. But not as conservative as you’d might think. In the US, Mormons are about 20% Democrat and most of the rest characterize themselves as “moderate conservatives,” and don’t really identify with Glenn Beck. There’s a chunk that are very right-wing, ultra conservative, but for the most part, Mormons are moderate conservatives.
“But what about Prop 8?”
Prop 8 has been a headache for Mormons everywhere. As a group, they’re trying to move on and they don’t really like to talk about it. While a lot of Mormons support the *idea* of Prop 8, they were pretty baffled why the Church went full force into California. The Church generally isn’t particularly politically active. Because of their Church’s history, Mormons are pretty big believers in the separation of church and state. Even though the membership is pretty conservative, the Church tries to stay politically neutral.
Some of the more liberal membership flipped a lid, some of the more conservative were hard core into it. Most were a bit surprised, but ultimately were OK with it and went on with life. Within the Mormon community, the debate around Prop 8 and the new website, characterize the difference between so-called “Utah Mormons” and other Mormons.
“What’s a Utah Mormon?”
It’s a very conservative and slightly fanatical type of Mormon. It’s not an official term for an official group of Mormons. It’s just in-group jargon to refer to Mormons that are extra conservative and a little bit holier-than-thou. You don’t have to have ever lived in Utah to be considered a ‘Utah Mormon’. Also not all Mormons in Utah are “Utah Mormons”. It’s just jargon. The character “Elder Kevin Price” in the Book of Mormon Musical is a good example of a Utah Mormon.
As my friend says in their characteristically diplomatic way: “The best way to describe them is a little bit judgmental, naive, and hypocritical.”
“So what’s the deal with the website?”
Prop 8 was a public relations nightmare for the Church, but the website is only partly about reaching out to the public at large. Another reason for the website is to give Mormons a resource to go to when they have questions about their gay son or daughter, or if they have questions about their own homosexuality. But most importantly, it’s an attempt to get the “Utah Mormons” to chill out, because they’re not loving everyone like they should. The message of the website is: We’re all God’s children, so stop ostracizing people. Especially your kids. Seriously.
“Now can I ask about the Magic Underwear?”
Sure. It’s not as weird as it sounds. Mormons call them garments. The garments are a symbol of the covenants Mormons make with God in the Temple. These covenants are basic things that any good Christian should be following anyway. (chastity, etc) They are no different than other religious article of clothing. Priests have their collars, Jews have their yarmulke, other religions have their clothing. The clothes are there to remind us who we are. Mormons just wear them on the inside.
Wow. This is a paradigm exposition of Mormon apologism. Having lived in Utah and Idaho for 12 years, I heard this spiel often. Summed up as Mormons are nice people too! Our religion isn’t so crazy in its cosmology. We’re not isolationists or separatists. We respect other people. We’re not secret outside of Temple. Our garments show our love and solidarity. We’re cool like the rest of society, see my Megan Fox hairdo (used to be Farrah Fawcett, etc). We are just some nice folks, like you really. Certainly not like Jehovah’s Witness, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Scientologists, or Muslims. We were persecuted and wanted to find peace. Our hope is to share our good tidings with everyone.
I am sorry. I don’t buy it. I had way, way too many mormon friends who were abused and shattered by excommunication, bearing witness, shunning, abuse, and just psychologically screwed up from trying to understand how to live, happily, in mormonism.
Yes, it’s true I had “good mormon” friends too. Since I didn’t, at first, smoke or drink or do drugs, I was a “golden prospect.” I am also willing to talk to anyone. Frankly, I learned my theology to deal with mormons insisting that “I should check it out.” I did and I found it wanting.
A department head, among others, said he liked being mormon so he could have his own planet. Many tried to convince me that cold liquids were shown to be medically harmful. I can’t tell you how many times rape victims were told to go to their bishop, pray, and return home. Being a better mormon or a good mormon created tremendous stress. The patriarchy prevented many exceptional women from holding jobs or participating in society because their role was at home and decisions were to be in deference to the husband. My bishop and elder friends explained that they were secretive in their administration of the church because they felt others, even within the church, were trying to question their decisions without knowing the reasons. Frankly, you were supposed to obey first and pray for guidance second. Questioning had to come up through the ranks and it usually got stopped–this might just be on questions like where is my tithing going.
My own mother was hired at the U of U because the law required it and the music department was so dominated by a male brotherhood there were few women; so much so a University wide committee was established to insist they hire more women and promote them. Male dominance was endemic.
Before moving to Utah I was in the Boy Scouts. Investigating troops there I truly was astounded. I wouldn’t touch the scouts there with a mile long pole.
But hey they’re not really any worse than other big religions… Yeah, well, certainly not any better.
I think they’re happy as long as you don’t think they’re any worse than other big religions.
You caught the first half of the post, the Mormon point of view, but did you read the rest about prop 8 and the new website and Utah Mormons?
I have to admit that I am still not sure how to “read” the post. The last two paragraphs that you just pointed to were OK but, the stuff above it seemed like it was written by Mormon apologist. Someone who is still a mormon but, can’t stand what the church really does. So, they have tried to come up with some arguments to convince themselves (and maybe others) that the mormon cult is not so bad.
I am not buying it.
“They’re not secretive, they’re just uncommon.”
They are uncommon but, they are secretive, very secretive. I don’t care if they want to hide behind the label of ceremonial, celestial or sacred. They are still secrets. The more secrets a group has the less I tend to like them.
“What’s a Utah Mormon?”
This section really hurt my head. It is like saying those “Vatican Catholics.” The Utah mormons are the mormons. The cult is not a democracy. The leader (profit – spelled this on purpose) claims to talk to god. From time to time god changes his mind and it often coincides with the need of the church to make money. Like when the decided in 1978 that it was better to admit that dark skinned people were not all bad. They did this from social pressure, the potential loss of their tax exempt status and a recognition that future revenue would come from people with darker skin all around the world.
Look what their book says…
“And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.” (2 Nephi 5:21)”
My final points….
“Are Mormons anti-gay?”
“To Mormons, being gay isn’t a choice. You’re born that way. It can’t be helped.”
….it can’t be helped. Who needs help. Nothing wrong with being gay.
“Homosexual urges are normal and sin-free, but acting on them is a sin because any sort of sex outside of marriage is a sin.”
Well, if you have to be gay fine… just don’t act on it. How hateful. If they can’t see it shame on them.
I have known many mormons and exmormons. The stories of split families and shunning is horrible. Maybe some families would not kick out a gay or lesbian child but others will and have. I have know people that have lost their spouse, children and their jobs when they left the church. One friend’s dad drove himself and their pregnant out of marriage daughter into a tree with the hope of at least killing the baby and maybe the daughter for bringing same on their family. Maybe he was just one of those…..”Utah Mormon’s”
It is simple…If you don’t like what this cult does – Leave! Don’t spin the facts.
Long Jim rant ahead: Yes, I was being generous because Kenna was posting… But my Catholic and Protestant friends were actually more generous, kind, forgiving, and accepting than most of my Mormon friends.
I had a good new friend’s wife dream I was satan and had the number 666 tattooed on me. I spent three hours convincing her to let my friend continue his relation with me and she never quite trusted me. My neighbor’s son wasn’t allowed to talk to another neighbor’s daughter because they worried she might realizer that being nonmormon was OK.
My best friend dated a mormon for one year until the family said she had to quit him as he was nonmormon. This story repeated itself often with other friends. I would try to tell my nonmormon friends to watch out but dating is so innocent… The women would say it was alright and then as the relation got serious and it wasn’t just TV or movies and Saturday with the family, it was convert or get out.
I had several mormon friends come to me distraught that they had been talked against in testimony being declaimed that they weren’t good mormons–you laugh but this was a big deal. Other friends were worried they’d be excommunicated because they didn’t perform some mormon practice. Jackmormons (exmormons or nonpracticing mormons) had story after story of how their religion had harmed them. People judging each other created horrendous psychological pandemonium.
Another good fried had never left Cache Valley. His family taught him to be afraid of strangers and that nonmormons were a disease. He did finally socialize but very poorly. We tried to take him to a rock concert in Park City and he was so terrified he stayed at a friend’s house. When I left he was smoking 3 packs a day and drinking a case of beer. He knew other people were kind and he worked at being kind but the ostracism from his family was killing him.
My gay friends were bashed so hard you could see their heads spin. I was amazed at how many people were gay but you never saw because they feared to come out. They would fake talking about hetero sex and liking the other gender to stay hidden.
I have always had a big beard and mormons would stare at me in the grocery store as if I were evil. Indeed, I had several remark to cut my beard. Even though the mormon prophets had long hair! I did have some nice mormons tease me that I looked like a prophet.
I was discriminated in jobs because mormons couldn’t believe I could be moral unless I was mormon.
Companies for which I worked tended to segregate into mormon and nonmormon factions. Mormons have something religious to do near every night of the week and that is what the church wants. They want mormons to live, breathe, and eat the practice. It;s not just a religion but a culture.
My wife at the time was a social worker and it was incredibly difficult to get women and men to seek professional help because they relied on bishops, untrained, lay administration, for nearly all of their personal problems. The amount of power a lay bishop has is phenomenal.
I knew mormon women that wanted so bad to go on a mission but couldn’t because they were female and likewise for mormon administration. Frankly, it was the women for whom I felt the worst. They had little power and resorted to the weirdest kind of power tactics to have say or just gave up and became passively compliant. Phylis Schalfly was a lightening rod for many mormon women. If your relationship is fucked blame yourself, dress in saran wrap and get that man. Ugghh.
Miller’s honey supported a talk partly sponsored by the Freeman Institute, for which I unknowingly took a job as a janitor while going to the U. I attended and they openly proposed Christian Nationalism and forwarded the belief the Constitution was a divine document, the founding fathers were Christian and that only Christians should serve in politics and social governance. They were clear they were going to take back the country. Check out Cleon Skousen, the popular faith-based political theorist whom both Glen Beck and Romney admire.
Historically, they claim persecution but when you read the history, the mormons had become locally dominant and annoyed the crap out everyone so much with their theological bullshit the citizens united against them. I am not saying people ever deserve to be persecuted but they flaunted their superior religion so much and gained so much power as to cause people to feel threatened.
I had another neighbor who said she loved a story of the native americans that when man was “baked”, some were cooked too light, some too dark, and some just right. It reflected the common mormon belief that god created skin color for a moral reason.
Since I had a Jewish father (whom I never met and Judaism is passed through females) they thought I was a little better because we shared the history of the twelve tribes and they consider themselves one of the lost tribes that landed in the US they would try to hook me in with that commonality. But it got odious to keep hearing how the vikings, or the tahitians, or the came to America and Christ was coming back to the US in his second coming. And yes it did get tedious to hear about the second coming all of the time especially as 2000 approached.
I totally loved the intermountain area physically; the combination of desert, mountains, and valleys is superb and Utah has more nonprivate land and parks than any other state. But when I left I felt such a sense of relief. I felt so much more like an acceptable person!
But still in California when I met mormons they had that clannish distrust and paternal superiority even though they hid themselves more. It got so I could tell a mormon by sight and style.
Politically Orrin Hatch, whom I met twice, has been the most conservative voting member of the senate since forever. What I hated the most about him, and other mormon men, is the snarkey tone they use when talking–you always get the feeling that they are either whining or talking down to you.
And yes I had some good mormon friends, who side stepped the bullshit, but you have to consider a religion by its average and its output, and not the corners. There are good people in all religions–the only thing that gives me hope and proves religion is not the cure–look at a moral philosophy and tell me what kind of people does it engender!
TL;DR: Propaganda
They’d never abandon a gay family member
False. I’ll let some of the posters here share their stories.
and they’re usually game for any of my odd questions about Mormonism.
False. Questions in the church about uncomfortable history are dissuaded or skipped entirely. These questions are usually referred to as deep doctrine, which carries a negative intonation. Questions to a member will incite a mixture of anger, defensiveness, and feigned oppression. You’ll likely have an upset Mormon who bears their testimony to you, someone quoting talking points from apologetic websites, or someone who claims you’re wrong. See also the September 6* or the publishers of Mormon Enigma* for an example of what happens to members who show too much of the history of the religion.
There’s a video* that shows a BYU professor/apologist explaining how to deal with this sort of question. He tells the listeners to answer the questions they want to answer rather than the one asked.
And they like The Book of Mormon: The Musical.
Possible… but I don’t know many Mormons willing to see the musical, especially not once the profanity laced song starts playing. Trey had a funny comment on this where one woman left in disgust, but her friends remained. *
I ran into more and more people that thought all Mormons were anti gay
False. Mormons are anti-gay. They actively fight as a religion against equal rights for homosexuals and legal marriage between people of the same gender. You can not practice a homosexual relationship even if you do not have sex. About a year ago, two men were kicked out of Temple Square for kissing and holding hands. The church called this “inappropriate behavior” and liked it to a hetro couple, but I haven’t heard of a single non-gay couple of being kicked out as well. And there are many engagements in the area which are accompanied by kissing.
and extremely secretive
False. The religion is secretive. The temple ceremony used the word “secret” in relation to the pass-phrases, hand gestures, hand shakes, and death penalties associated with each*. These were all required to get into heaven and required you to be a temple-worthy member (1+ year and meeting several other requirements – plus an interview with a bishop and their superior). This was changed in 1990 to read “sacred” which is the new euphemism for secret in the LDS church. It’s not a secret, it’s just so sacred we don’t want you to know about it.
Even today, they restrict access to the vaults of historical documents to all but a few hand selected Mormon academics, they keep certain member watch committee’s secret, and no good Mormon will tell you word for word what goes on in the temple. This is in addition to documents that have been purchased and hidden (even when they were forgeries – see the Hoffman scandal*).
You should always get your information from the source.
True, but this is not the source. This is an opinion piece about the church which claims ownership over the source. The source goes all the way back to Joseph Smith. After he died the Mormons split into 6 groups, one of which was the Brighimites. After polygamy ended in 1910 (the real time – in the USA at least) the church split into another major Faction (1914-1918) – the FLDS who wanted to keep the fundamental practices going. This is not including the near 200 * other splinter groups who all claim to be the one true branch.
They’re not secretive, they’re just uncommon
False – They are uncommon (not by their own making) but they are still very secretive. See above.
permalink
source
report
give gold
save
reply
hide child comments
[–]curious_mormon
“Nothing overshadows truth so much as authority.” – Leon Alberti 13 points 1 day ago (14|1)
The next time you get some Mormon missionaries at your door, ask away.
False – See above. Missionaries are further trained to redirect conversations back to the standard talking points they want to tell you about. Namely faith, repentance, baptism, tithing, and attending church constantly. If not in that order, and no – you can’t be baptized without promising to give 10% of your income in perpetuity to the religion.
If you really want to make a Mormon back away, pull out the book of Abraham and ask them why Joseph’s translations don’t match the modern translations. Well-read Mormons or apologists will change the subject or tell you the Egyptian is wrong (it’s not, but they claim a purer form existed when the original version of the facsimile was made – this one having been dated to ~2000 years after Abraham’s death). Everyone else will likely defend Joseph or bear testimony, or frankly admit that they don’t know.
Or, perhaps better, ask them how their church spends the tithing money it gains. They’ll give generic responses, but in reality they don’t know. Financial reports haven’t been published since the 50′s when the lds church fully embraced the corporate model.
Also, the Mormon Churches (but not the temples. Temples are members-only.)
True – don’t ask about the temples. They’re secret sacred. Ask them about the laws of consecration or the law of obedience.* (although, to be fair, they did call that as off limits in the article).
Do ask about polygamy though. Always ask about the polygamy They’re very eager for that rumor to be settled down.
False. And expect to be lied to. See the notes above on the history of polygamy, and remember the FLDS – Fundamentalist Mormons (although not recognized by the LDS church) are still practicing polygamy. Mainstream Brighimite mormons will still follow it in theory if not practice. You see, there are two types of marriages. The civil (legal) and the temple (lawful). Mormons will be married legally and lawfully when they are “sealed” in the temple. They are also sealed for time and eternity. Now, if a couple gets divorced legally they are still “sealed” (married) after this life. The man is then at liberty to marry another woman. The first will be given a chance to consent and the first presidency will approve the marriage. Now the man is still sealed to both women and will have both as his wives in the next life. He is only allowed to have sex with the one he is legally and lawfully married to.
For another point, ask them about Joseph and Brighams dabble in polyandry.* The average mormon will be taken back both by Joseph being a polygamist and by the word itself. No woman can have two living husbands you see. They linked Ann Eliza Webb Young (note the absence of Joseph’s wives) who left. She was divorced, penniless, and without her children at the event. She also had many, many negative things to say about the practice – which most Mormons are again unaware of today.
“Are Mormons polygamous?” Nope. Not since the wild, wild, west days.
False. The polygamous marriages made before the 1910 manifesto were still in effect. Leaders were even fined for co-habitation after the manifesto*.
To Mormons, being gay isn’t a choice.
Correct.. Kind of. So the church is pushing that it’s not a choice now, but it wasn’t always pushing that line. * In fact, one of the recent members of the 12 apostles (top 15 in the hierarchy) gave a talk stating that God wouldn’t make his children gay, implying it wasn’t a choice. The text was revised after the talk and prior to the printed release to match the LDS Church’s new stance.*
If secular people or non-mormon people want to get gay-married outside of a Mormon temple, that’s their choice and most Mormons don’t really care.
False. Well maybe, the individual member might not care, but the religion sure does. Prop 8 wasn’t about keeping Homosexuals from the temple or practice of religion. It was about keeping marriage a hetrosexual event. Mormons are very much against Gay marriage, likely to fight the same tax situation they saw with the civil rights movement (which they were also against).
“Can Mormons have gay relationships outside of marriage?”
False Gays can not hold hands and kiss inside a chapel. They would be told to stop. See above at temple square. The response is a great way to show the “answer the question I want to answer rather than one asked” method.
In the US, Mormons are about 20% Democrat and most of the rest characterize themselves as “moderate conservatives,”
Probably, but I’d need to see where they get their numbers. Also keep in mind that 20% is not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.
The Church generally isn’t particularly politically active.
False. The LDS church is very involved in politics.* Damon smith even gives an example of a certain presidential candidate quietly meeting with Church officials in the “Book of Mammon”*. It’s also well known that the LDS church has had a heavy hand in Salt Lake politics* and has written letters (as individuals on official stationary) to certain Mormon politicians pushing “suggestions”.*
Within the Mormon community, the debate around Prop 8 and the new website, characterize the difference between so-called “Utah Mormons” and other Mormons
False. Prop 8 was in California. It was discussed over the pulpit. If there were members “flipping a lid” they did so very discreetly or were otherwise ignored. If what they say has any bearing on truth then it should show how irrelevant the member’s opinions are to the lds church’s goals. Also note that members were the work force in the effort.
It’s a very conservative and slightly fanatical type of Mormon
Possibly. Utah Mormon is a slang term in the religion for those outside of Utah and somewhat inside. Mormons in Utah tend to be a little bit more “off” than the rest, but are usually only 2 years behind trends*.
“So what’s the deal with the website?” Prop 8 was a public relations nightmare for the Church
I believe this.. I believe this website is designed to try and diffuse anger against prop 8 (and thus the Mormons) by offering half-truths, selected arguments, and some out right lies.
“Now can I ask about the Magic Underwear?” Sure. It’s not as weird as it sounds.
False… well, it was false. Modern times will make this true. As you learn in the temple, the garments are supposedly symbolic of coats of skin Jesus made for Adam and Eve. They have 3 marks on the chest and one on the knee which are masonic marks. The meanings have been changed to a more religious nature, but the general idea is the same. They can be considered occult talismans and many of the old leaders promised they would protect the wearer from harm. Many old members remember and reiterate this, despite the fact that it has been mostly downplayed by the religion istself. (see the 60 minutes interview with the Mr. Marriot* [don't remember his first name. Bill maybe?]).
They are no different than other religious article of clothing
Partially false Garments are different in that they can be used as a means of control. Your bishop will sometimes tell you to stop wearing your garments which will then show everyone else that you have committed some major sin (such as not paying your tithing or looking at porn). Also, you are not allowed to buy Garments unless you have a current temple recommend. Also, there is an anointing ceremony (which prior to 2005 was done mostly nude – you had a cloth poncho protecting you (it was fully nude in the early 1800′s)). Not to worry though, only old men touch young men and old women touch young women.
Mormons just wear them on the inside.
Mostly true. Although men like to have the collars peek out and some women have admitted to feeling the knee for the hem line while looking for a prospective mate.
that was wonderful. Thank you.
It reads like an Mormon apologist wrote it because a Mormon apologist helped me write it. lol I was trying to capture the current mormon mindset before I got my other interviews.
I’m not saying their perspective is fabulous — I’m just saying this is what they believe right now and these are a few of the political undercurrents that we should be aware of. Because really, the website isn’t really for non-members. If you don’t know the current mormon mindset, if you’re unaware of the current political situations within the church, you’re going to be pretty unequipped to evaluate the impact that the website will have on the Mormon community.
And yes “mormon”, it’s true that MY mormons friends that I grew up with would never shun a gay family member — because that happened. One of my mormon friends had an older brother who was gay. The gay brother left the church, but he and his partner are still a welcome part of the family and still connected to many of their old church friends. Being thrown out doesn’t happen to everyone. It happens in more conservative, backwards churches, but not every chruch. The website is proof that they’re trying to reign in the practice.
Of course their perspective isn’t in line with the mainstream yet. But things are changing. We should document the change.
“whew” I thought maybe you just became a Mormon. I like the discussion, keep the posts coming.