Planned Parenthood Protesters And A Polite Conversation

Posted by Phil Ferguson on April 10th, 2011 – 35 Comments – Posted in Personal Stories, Uncategorized

This afternoon I had some time to kill and I went to get my oil changed.  It is on a very busy street and I wanted to go left when done.  I decided to avoid the left turn and went out the back side and drove on a few side streets.  A few blocks away I saw 4 ladies standing on the sidewalk holding signs by some building.  The signs were small and I could not read them.  It then hit me that this was the planned parenthood building.  I  parked my car and walked 1 short block to talk to these women.

I will now try to summarize my visit with these 4 very nice ladies.  I want to thank them for taking the time to talk with me for around 25 minutes.  I did not record the conversation so I will do my best to discuss some of the topics below.  I do want to be clear that I am going to criticize their ideas – not them as people.  If you cannot make that distinction in your own head – move on to the next blog post.

I did tell them about my blog and I let them know that I would likely write up our conversation.  I was delighted to find that they did not all share the exact same opinions and I thought we had a very nice and productive talk – until the end.  They told me that they planned to come to this blog and read my review. I invite them or any other readers to put comments below.

——-

When I got close I asked if they would tell me what why they were there and that I wanted to read their signs.  They informed me that they are there as part of 40 days for life.

40 Days for Life takes a determined, peaceful approach to showing local communities the consequences of abortion in their own neighborhoods, for their own friends and families. It puts into action a desire to cooperate with God in the carrying out of His plan for the end of abortion in America.

The 40-day campaign tracks Biblical history, where God used 40-day periods to transform individuals, communities … and the entire world. From Noah in the flood to Moses on the mountain to the disciples after Christ’s resurrection, it is clear that God sees the transformative value of His people accepting and meeting a 40-day challenge.

Oddly, one of their first points of concern about Planned Parenthood in Champaign was that the building looked a little run down.  I agreed that it needed some paint and suggested that perhaps more government funding was needed.  They were not amused with my suggestion.  I have decided that as a small counter protest, I will go back there on Monday and donate $40 to show my support for Planned Parenthood.  You can show your support here.

I then ask them if abortion was murder.  They all seemed to agree that it was murder in all cases and we discussed how it would be the same as killing an 8 year old child.  I then asked if they thought that the woman who helped in the murder should face jail time or the death penalty.  I got the impression that they had never thought about a potential punishment for the mother.  They seemed to think that the stress and trauma of the situation would be enough for the poor mother and she should not go to jail.

I then asked, if someone killed an 8 year old and had the same level of trauma and stress in their life, would they also be set free.  They said NO and could not fully explain to me why there was a difference.

We also talked about conception.  They held the position that life started at conception.  I explained that every cell was alive and that both and egg and a sperm were alive before they joined.  They reluctantly agreed that the egg was alive because it had DNA in it but, they weren’t so sure about the sperm.  After a little discussion they accepted my point and then shifted their answer to a new human life starts at conception.  I hoped they would try to quote the bible but they never did and this may have been because they were all catholic.

I asked how they could arrive at this determination and one woman said it’s just common sense.  I explained that it was only common sense to her and that many people did not hold the same view.  I need evidence.  She then said that I rationalize too much – just like her son.  He sounds like a great guy!

I was also pleasantly surprised that they were not all against condoms and some even expressed agreement with my idea that it would be better to prevent pregnancy in the first place.  I almost got them to agree to supporting an organization that helped educate women about their options but then one of them suggested that would be like Planned Parenthood and they could not support that.  DOH!

One of the ladies then said that Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood to help reduce the number of blacks and that is why all Planned Parenthood locations are in the “black” part of town and most abortions are on black women.  This stunned me for a moment and I’m sure I looked like David Silverman did when Bill O’Reilly said the “the tide goes in, the tide goes out…”  I did point out that even if this was true (it is not) it does not change the argument about Planned Parenthood today. (Not that it matters… but 53.6% of abortions are by whites and the most religious states have the highest abortion rates)

Margaret Sanger was arrested several time for trying to get birth control information to women.  She fought very hard for women’s rights and I was sorry to hear such disrespect for her.  Here is a small sample of what she wrote….

It is a vicious cycle; ignorance breeds poverty and poverty breeds ignorance. There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding these things. Stop bringing to birth children whose inheritance cannot be one of health or intelligence. Stop bringing into the world children whose parents cannot provide for them. Herein lies the key of civilization. For upon the foundation of an enlightened and voluntary motherhood shall a future civilization emerge.

Next, they asked if I saw the undercover video that showed a Planned Parenthood employee helping to cover up the rape of a young girl.  It was implied that this kind of activity was another reason for this place to close.  I honestly said that I had never seen it and if something like that happened it would be awful.

I then asked them if they thought that any organization that allowed the employees to cover up the rape of children should be shut down (I know you saw it coming – it was too easy).  I thought that two of them were about to say yes but, one of them was on to me and suggested that I was talking about the catholic church.  (i guess she knows about the cover up of rape – a good sign?)

I was told that it was different for the catholic church.  They do a lot of good and only the few bad people should be punished.  You can’t blame the whole organization.  I suggested that they same rule should apply to Planned Parenthood.  They did not agree.

Then the really sad moment came….

One of the ladies told me that the percentage of children raped by priests is equal to the percentage of children raped by public school teachers.  I strongly objected to this claim and thought that it was a very sad attempt to say it wasn’t all that bad in the catholic church.

At this point we agreed to go our different ways and I walked back to my car.

  1. Karthik says:

    You just inspired me to donate to planned parenthood and I am going to do how .. However the link you provided to support is broken ..

  2. Phil says:

    @ Karthik,
    Link fixed. Thank you

  3. anonymous says:

    This stunned me for a moment and I’m sure I looked like David Silverman did when Bill O’Reilly said the “the tide goes in, the tide goes out…”

    So you are a redditor?

  4. Paul B says:

    With respect to the “most abortions are on black women” point, while it’s technically untrue, 53.6% is much smaller than the percentage of whites in the US (72.4% in 2010 according to wikipedia), so minorities are indeed highly over-represented.

    It’s probably more an economic thing than a race thing to be fair, the “black parts” of town could just as easily be referred to as the “poor parts” of town, but just saying she’s not entirely wrong about the figures..

  5. Chris says:

    I think it’s a good thing you did to post their picture. It brings a sense of reality into the discussion as I am able to reflect on what is being said. These days, the internet makes it so easy to just laugh and disagree with other people’s opinions…almost too easy.

  6. Ron Pryor says:

    http://wapo.st/fn6OS9
    Here’s a link that show all of the things that Planned Parenthood does. Very little of their operations include abortions. Too bad educating people will never help the debate.

  7. Remy says:

    You have inspired me to give, too. Did that just now.

    You are a force of good in the world. Please keep going. There are people everywhere who are angry and ready to help — they only need a place to start.

  8. slantrhyme says:

    Well done, and a great read. Very dignified and respectful, while still managing that fine line of getting your point across. I would have made a hash of both the conversation and the write-up, so I’m jealous AND impressed.

  9. Phil says:

    @ anonymous,
    I do read and post to Reddit. However, that concept in not unique to that arena. If it started there it has spread. Thank you for stopping in.
    @ Paul B,
    I cannot argue against the idea that minorities are currently over-represented – that was not my intent. I was disputing the claim made by one the protestors that “most” (more than 50% – is my interpretation) abortion are on performed for black women.
    @Chris,
    Picture… After our talk I was thinking of not putting up the picture but they said that they would look for the story and affirmed that it was ok.
    @Ron,
    Thank you for the link.
    @Remy & Slantrhyme,
    After a rough day, your kind comments almost brought me to tears – THANK YOU!

  10. Fake Name says:

    About what I expected… sigh. So sad such people have that level of indoctrination and ignorance.

  11. Mardee says:

    I think it’s great you did that. You were probably the only person who gave them any feed back from the other side.

  12. Karen says:

    I just went to Planned Parenthood and received birth control. I didn’t see anything at all about abortion there, actually. I almost suspect that you’d have to ask for it specifically. The people that worked there were very nice and the doctor I had was extremely kind and open to all my questions and concerns. I’ll admit, I was raised to not like Planned Parenthood. (I even wrote a school paper long ago sort of against them. More against abortion, but Planned Parenthood is a huge target.) My opinion has changed as I have grown and learned more, though. They even had information for adoption services in there. If I can find another Planned Parenthood when I move soon, I’ll most likely go to them again to give them support.

  13. Ms. Crazy Pants says:

    Since the people you met said they would check your site, I would like to once again reiterate that I wouldn’t be here today without Planned Parenthood. I couldn’t afford regular medical care, so I had my annual exams performed at Planned Parenthood. They discovered I had dysplasia (pre-cancerous cells). The next argument from Planned Parenthood opponents would be to blame it on premarital sex. They would then have to explain why my mother got it as well (a more advanced form) and she had married her high school sweetheart. That tells me it was just likely to happen, and without it being caught, it would have eventually become cancer, and I still wouldn’t be able to afford any checks or care. I think without Planned Parenthood helping me through my 20’s that I probably wouldn’t have made it into my 30’s, and now my 40’s.

    I never became pregnant, and therefore, never had to worry about making the decision to keep a child or not. Without Planned Parenthood and what I learned from them, I may have found myself having to make that decision.

    It really upsets me when I see people protesting Planned Parenthood, because it seems to me like they are directly telling me that MY death is ok to them.

    In addition, not everyone is cut out to be a mother. A childhood friend of mine just killed herself in the last year, and her inability to deal with motherhood was a large contributor to that.

    Finally, another argument that gets brought up is “what if you were aborted?” Yes, I would have preferred that my mother had aborted me. I won’t go into details why, but I started wishing I was dead at a very young age (under 8). At that time I was a believer, attended a religious school, and hated myself, because I couldn’t understand why god made my life like that, so I assumed it was because I did something wrong.

    There are several things that makes me believe anti-abortionists are not pro-life:
    1) They don’t want to put forth the effort and money required to ensure every child has food and shelter.

    2) They don’t want to put forth the effort and money required to ensure no child has to suffer abuse. I’d be willing to bet most of them voted to gut all the social programs, because they believe that women get pregnant to get money from the state (seriously false).

    3) They don’t want birth control either, or any measures that prevent pregnancy. I’ve even received comments from friends about me getting my tubes tied without having kids like I’m doing something wrong. Any arguing with me that I should have kids just tells me they really are out to control my uterus without any real concern about any children I may have.

    4) They wouldn’t be ok with another Charles Manson being born, or another Jeff Dahmer. Every child born has as much potential to be a killer as any other killer that came into the world. If every life is sacred, then Manson’s life is sacred too. What about children born from killers, abusers, addicts and so on? Do any of the pro-lifers want to adopt crack babies? I doubt it. They would decide that the crack baby is less worthy than a “normal” baby with no defects.

    There’s 2 reasons why I think anti-abortionists are anti-abortionists.
    1) They don’t want their own kids to be able to have an abortion. They fear their children having sex before marriage and will put any additional roadblocks in the way that they can to ensure their children live the life the parents think they should.

    2) They are trying to bargain their way into heaven. The idea is to gain as many heaven points as possible with the least amount of effort. They want to keep all they have, all their riches and comfy lifestyle, yet do something they think is good, even though it places a burden on someone else. Jesus never said to put burdens on other people to get into heaven. He said to pick up your cross and follow him. Your cross is YOUR burden to bear, not anyone else’s burden. I see more christians trying to force a burden onto others (their religious beliefs) than those taking up a burden for anyone else.

  14. Petra says:

    I agree with you and was very surprised that these ladies thought sperm does not contain DNA…???

  15. Petra says:

    @mMs Crazy Pants: I agree with you that our first priority should be to make life liveable for those who are already alive.

  16. Melissa says:

    Not all prolifers are protesters or crazy people without a lot of facts. I support prolife because I see a LOT of young girls who are unwilling to accept consequences of their actions. I see a lot of married and single adults who are unable to have children.

    I personally know a young woman who had 5 abortions before the age of 18.

    I support Planned Parenthood, not because they do abortions, but because they help women who have nowhere else to turn. I have gone to PP to get the health care I couldnt afford otherwise. Granted they told me I would need surgery to get pregnant and well… two kids later never got the surgery and I am quite content.

    They made the Mirena affordable to me.

    Sometimes there are health issues that require abortions. I see and understand that. My problem lies with the people who are careless with their actions. Who don’t think that there are any consequences to unprotected sex. THAT is where I draw the line for abortions.

  17. Larry Gott says:

    Melissa says: “I support prolife because I see a LOT of young girls who are unwilling to accept consequences of their actions.”

    NOT having an abortion may mean they are willing that their unwanted children must accept the consequences of the mothers’ actions. Pro lifers seem rarely to consider the plight of the children their policies would force to be brought into a world that doesn’t want them. It’s difficult enough for a willing and loving parent to raise a wanted child to responsible adulthood. How much more difficult for an unwilling, or addicted mother to raise a child with any kind of values when she resents its very existence. Yet that is the relationship that the pro lifers would force on everyone.

  18. Luno says:

    Melissa, your notion of pregnancy as punishment is laughably absurd. You do a disservice to your gender by promoting the inconsistent nonsense of the church that women are to be sentenced to childrearing for enjoying their bodies, without any control whatsoever over those same bodies when it comes to the choice of not wanting a parasite in them for nine months, or to pay for rearing a child for the next couple decades.

    I’ll give a counterexample for you: Let’s say that you are in a car accident. Your phone rang as you were driving, so you grabbed your purse and dug for it. While your attention was off the road, a pedestrian entered a crosswalk in the road, oblivious to your lack of responsibility. Not seeing the innocent victim, you barreled over them with your vehicle.

    Now the patient has been rushed to the emergency room, and it is discovered that they have two perforated kidneys – they’re both utterly destroyed, in fact. You are a match as a kidney donor. No other donors are available that match the victim. Should the government compel you to undergo a surgical procedure to donate a kidney? What about other organs, say perhaps a lung?

    There is a risk of death, however slight, with these procedures, but you now have no say in the matter. You have given up your right of control over your own body in that moment of lapsed responsibility when you reached for your phone. Good luck living with one kidney and half of your lung capacity. You’ll never be able to run up a flight of stairs or perform any aggressive activities, and you’ll be more susceptible to certain diseases as well – for the rest of your life.

    That’s your responsibility, right?

  19. Pro Life Forever says:

    In reading your post I found that your reporting of our conversation was very inaccurate and one sided. It was not at all an objective report by you. I suspect that you are not capable of being objective. I will not go into all of the discrepancies but will only address two items. Percentages were never discussed you must have pulled your figures from outer space. Also when it was suggested that abuse also occurs by public school teachers you reacted very strongly that it was not so. Statistics show that public school teachers and any others who work with children can be abusers and that the most dangerous place for a child to be is in its own home. The comment about school teachers caused such a reaction in you that this led me to believe that perhaps you have some unresolved issues in your life that you have not faced honestly. In fact your parting comment to us was again, that it was not so.

    Like the uninformed and much to be pitied woman who kills her baby because she does not understand what she is doing you are obviously in need of much prayer. You are now included in my daily prayers.

    Following are a couple of links that you might find of interest if you are open minded enough to read them.

    http://www.acts1711.com/sanger.htm

    http://www.lifenews.com/2011/02/23/new-planned-parenthood-report-record-abortions-done-in-2009/

    Pro-life forever

  20. Phil says:

    @ Pro Life Forever,

    Thank you for taking the time to read my post and make a comment. I’m sure that my report would appear one sided – it was my review of what happened. If you have points that you disagree with I would be happy for you to correct them.

    However, verbal attacks on me do not facilitate discussion, “…you are not capable of being objective.” and “… you have some unresolved issues in your life….”, “…You are obviously in need of much prayer.” This is not addressing any of my points and is simply a personal attack. I do hope for a more civil response with your next post. I still welcome you to make corrections to my review.

    Your 2 items….
    1) Percentages… I was not sure what you meant with your comment. It could be:

    a) A reference to the percentages I put in the blog about Black abortions…. If so, I did not claim that we discussed percentages. I simply put in some stats to refute your statement that MOST abortions are performed on blacks. I took what you said seriously and did some research. I put that information into the post. One of the commenter pointed out (without using insults) that minorities are currently over-represented and I agreed to the clarification. If this is what you meant to say simply state that as a fact.

    b) My use of the word “percentage” when discussing teachers. If this is your concern, then I will freely admit that I selected the word “percentage” as my best understanding of what you claimed and that you did not actually use the word “percentage”. As stated above I am open to correction.

    2) public schools. You did not claim that abuse “happens” in public schools. If you had – I would not disagree. Clearly it does. You implied that priests were just as likely to rape kids as school teachers and you repeated, in your comment above, (something I did not put in my post) that, “…the most dangerous place for a child to be is in its own home”

    Child rape does upset me and I wish that it upset you just as much. However, It seems that your response was just like the catholic church. Not worried about the kids but claiming that other people do it or kids get hurt at home – so why are you picking on us? Because, the church claims to be morally superior. If the men in charge are no better than the average child rapist then they have NO moral advantage. If your response to priest rapists is that other people do it too – then you are the one that is lost.

    Additionally, public schools do not cover up repeated cases of rape and then move the rapist to another school for a fresh batch of ass!

    Here is a link that uses catholic data to show that a priest is 100-fold more likely than an average member of the public to rape a child – if you are open minded enough to read it.

    http://tinyurl.com/3jgxwko

  21. Pro Life Forever says:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1094835/posts

    The above is an informative site.

    With prayers,

  22. Jeremiah says:

    So…The Pro Life Forever says, “It’s ok, as long as there is sexual abuse outside the church too”. I guess I don’t understand her point.

  23. Pro Life Forever says:

    Phil has misinterpreted and misstated everything that I have said. There is no truth in him. Such as him can only be helped by prayer. None of you have understanding in you.

    With prayers

  24. Jeremiah says:

    @ pro life forever, It seems to me that Phil has been very civil. You, on the other hand seem to have been the opposite. Please expand on your ideas with more than just a call for prayer, and calling him a liar. We are not here to ridicule you, but to gain a better understanding from people who think like you. Please, no name calling and try to respect people.

  25. Luno says:

    ProLifeForever, there is no truth in you, only dogma and confusion brought about by the myths of desert-dwelling nomads who thought the earth was flat. You can only be helped by science. I will include you in my daily experiments.

    With falsifiable evidence and controlled trials,
    -Luno

  26. Phil says:

    @ Pro Life Forever,
    In a continuing effort to fully consider you position I have read every word of the Free Republic link that you gave above. (did you read the link I suggested for you?)
    Here are some thoughts on the story. While it would not change the validity (or lack thereof) of the link you gave, I do wish to point out that it is from 2004.

    1) The very first sentence says the some of the information comes from a “draft” report. Sadly, there is no link to either the draft of final version of this report. There is a undefined claim of millions with no details on age range or number of years. Skeptics really like citations to support claims – none is provided.

    2) Paragraph 2 mentions an unnamed “expert” and an unnamed “university”. How am I to check this claim? However, the opinion seems to be that there is no solid data. However, the story then goes on to make solid claims.

    3) From this point on we only have claims by a Ms Shakeshaft. Or did she write the report above that claims we have no solid data?

    4) She claims that 10% of American student are the targets of unwanted sexual attention, “ranging from sexual comments to rape”. WOW! again no citation and that covers a VERY wide range and includes “sexual comments” which is not defined.

    5) I found the catholic study that was cited. It can be read about here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
    It does seem odd to use documents from the very people that are accused to covering up the raping of little children. Could it be that they under report the problem? I will continue….

    6) Ms. Shakeshaft then “Extrapolates” (what does that mean) from a study done in 2000. Again no citation and no way for anyone to check here estimate of 290,000. I found the group that was mentioned but don’t know which study to even look at.
    http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/all.cfm

    Well you get the idea. You may be right but skeptics need to check the data. This link you sent sites a report that has no value and is flawed.
    Eugene W. Hickok (Deputy Secretary or the US department of education) – sponsor of Ms. Shakeshaft’s report, states that they have serious reservations about her work. Whoops…
    http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/preface.html

    Please provide another source.

    This is just a distraction the real problem is that you and the catholic church can’t even admit that there is a systematic problem. Please remember that this all started when you claimed that Planned Parenthood should be closed down because they covered up the rape of one child.

    As I said before – it they did it is awful and those responsible should face justice and jail time. Will you at least agree that the 4,392 priests listed in the catholic study referenced in your link should go to jail as well?

    I still welcome corrections to any errors in my original post.

  27. Pro Life Forever says:

    To Jeremiah:

    Civility – On this blog I think that there is very little civility for anyone who has a point of view different then this group.

    Abuse – It is always wrong and can never be tolerated. That has always been my point of view. But it is equally wrong to blame one segment of society for all abuse. Abuse also happens in protestant churches, public schools, families, foster families, scouts. Anyplace where there are children those children are vulnerable to abuse. Abuse is a problem of all of society! And sometimes innocent people are accused.

    http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/abuse_allegations_true_false_and_truthy/

    And abortion is also wrong; it kills a human being and harms the mother.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/the_coverup_of_abortions_real_1.html

    To Luno:

    I pray that you will be brought to your knees before The First Scientist!

    To Phil: In order to correct all of your misstatements about our conversation and exchanges I would have to start a blog of my own and I just do not have the time.

    With prayers,

  28. I Was There at Planned Parenthood says:

    The four of us (I am the one on the right and my name is Peggy) were at Planned Parenthood simply to pray for an end to abortion because on the 1st day, conception, of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds. At that moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All the inherited features of this new person are already set. 18 – 20 days – the foundation of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are laid. 21 days – the heart begins to beat & is .03in. and reaches a maximum of 170-190 beats at 7 weeks, and slowing a bit to 160-180 at 9 weeks. A day later the eyes begin to develop, etc. At 4 months the baby can grasp with hands, make a fist, swim, and turn somersaults, the mother’s voice can be heard and recognized. As a mother of 3 boys, it was the most wonderful experience of my lifetime. If there is anyone on this blog who is pregnant or has had an abortion and needs help, they can contact Birthright of Champaign, 110 112 N. Neil. – 217-351-7744 Adoption is an option also. I have a friend who gave up her baby when she was just out of high school. Several years ago, that baby, a son, contacted her and he now has 3 children of his own and they stay in touch. Abortion hurts women, and if anyone needs help after abortion, they too can contact Birthright. It is free. 40 Days for Life has mobilized over 400,000 people worldwide, saved more than 3,500 lives from abortion, led to the conversion of 43 abortion workers, and seen 9 abortion facilities close. My last thought, neither you or I know what awaits us when our life here on earth is finished, but as for me, I will err on the side of life. Please err on the side of life. Thank you for including us on your blog.

  29. Savonarola says:

    I Was There wrote,
    > The four of us … were at Planned Parenthood simply to pray
    > for an end to abortion
    Sorry, I’m not buying that you were there *simply* to pray. You had signs.
    Can God hear you only when you’re standing outside of Planned Parenthood, or only when you’re holding signs?

    > At that moment, a new and unique individual is formed.
    If such a cell splits once before differentiation begins, then we get two individuals, neither of which are genetically unique. Does this mean that twins aren’t people? Does this mean that only one of them counts? Maybe each one is only a half-person. Or only half-alive!

    > All the inherited features of this new person are already set.
    On one hand, it’s funny to hear you first argue that these zygotes are special and then explain that these clumps of cells are merely biological machines executing programming. On the other hand, it’s sad that you’ve learned to regurgitate the talking points when I strongly suspect that you have very little understanding of what’s taking place in terms of inheritance and development.

    > At 4 months the baby
    The fetus.

    > Adoption is an option also.
    Abortion is an option also. It’s an important decision, as is the one to carry a pregnancy to term, but that’s the point: one side wants a woman to have the option, the other side wants their “option” mandatory.

    > Abortion hurts women,
    So does denying women their rights, but not always the former, yet the latter much more so. If you don’t want an abortion, pro-choicers aren’t going to make you get one.

    > My last thought, neither you or I know what awaits us when
    > our life here on earth is finished,
    Lack of absolute certainty has never been a reason to avoid action. We draw conclusions based on what evidence we have available and how reliable that evidence seems to be.

    > but as for me, I will err on the side of life.
    Well there’s your problem. Stop erring. Just get it right the first time.
    Even worse, you couch this in terms of the unknown of the afterlife. This, I think, exposes your true motives. You don’t care about the fetus; you care about what you think that your God wants. So, if you can indirectly play the “What if you’re wrong” card, then I’ll spin it back on you: What if you’re wrong? What if God actually thinks that women who want abortions — especially to preserve their own well-being — ought to be able to have abortions? How would you feel, then, having spent so much time and effort into denying women that choice? How would you feel knowing that you hurt women who were in an already unpleasant and difficult situation because you misunderstood your big friend in the sky?

    > Please err on the side of life.
    Oh, if only you would. You instead err by hurting the life that can feel pain and understand existence in favor of continuing the “life” of something that isn’t even self-aware. To consider these “lives” equal is a sham, dishonest to the max. What an insult to women to consider them and their opinions inferior compared to an unfeeling clump of cells.

  30. I Was There at Planned Parenthood says:

    Hi. Just wondering why my last comment has not been posted. Also, one of the things we discussed with you in front of Planned Parenthood was why it was not OK to kill your living children, and why is it considered 2 murders if you kill a pregnant woman, but it is not murder when you kill your unborn baby.

    We failed to discuss the fact that unborn babies feel pain when they are aborted. Arms & legs are torn off. How about late term abortions – their spine is severed with a scissors in the back of the neck.

    I was praying at Planned Parenthood not because I have a fear of God or that I was trying to please Him, but because if only 1 pregnant girl went by and read my sign – CHOOSE LIFE – and decided not to abort, the danger of my being there would be worth it. The danger goes both ways.

    We also discussed the fact that abortion sounds easy at the time, but later in life it can reek havoc for many woman, especially when she decides to have children. Many women will regret the fact that she aborted her baby.

    I have a family member who was adopted by a very loving family. He is very successful and has 2 daughters. His wife recently passed away at age 54, however his daughter is pregnant with his first grandchild. This grandchild will help to fill the void in his life. These aborted babies are also someone’s grandchildren,, They are not just “unfeeling clumps of cells” as Savonarola mistakenly stated. There are certain things you cannot learn from books, you learn them just by living.

  31. Phil says:

    The last post (not posted) appeared to be a restatement of the same content as your first comment so it was not approved. Simply repeating what you said before does not make it any more valid.

    Also, it is bad form to copy and past content from someone else and put it up as your comment without giving credit – I think they call this plagiarism.
    “1st day, Conception. Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds…” //prskitsap. org/Documents/Growth Milestones of Your Baby.pdf (note: link broke on purpose but provided as support to my claim)

    You are right, we did discuss a few other things. Like I said in the post, our talk was around 25 minutes long.

    Your claim on 2 murders… I have not studied the case law but, I would be surprised if a blastocyst that was 2 days would be counted as a murder. I would guess like many things, it is not black and white like you wish but instead very complicated. In the skeptic world we often ask for support of claims made. Please provide a citation to your claim that the law would see the destruction of a few day old blastocyst as murder.

    “Later in life it can reek havoc…” I’m sure it may – for some. SO WHAT! Do you want to make a law to prevent people from doing things they may regret later? I know there are plenty of people that regret giving money to the catholic church and then sitting there listening to lies about how condoms help spread AIDS!

  32. Savonarola says:

    I Was There wrote,
    > We failed to discuss the fact that unborn babies feel pain
    > when they are aborted.
    What a dishonest statement. The physiological ability to feel pain has not been developed in the vast majority of abortions.

    > How about late term abortions – their spine is severed
    > with a scissors in the back of the neck.
    And those late-term abortions are illegal. You can protest those all you want, and I wouldn’t even disagree with you.

    > I was praying at Planned Parenthood … because if [one
    > abortion was prevented] the danger of my being there
    > would be worth it.
    Then you have it entirely backward. You should be volunteering FOR Planned Parenthood, because they provide both counseling and contraception to prevent the unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If you truly cared about stopping abortion, you’d help women get effective contraception.
    Check the studies: The best ways to reduce STDs, teenage pregnancies, unwanted pregnancies, and abortions is comprehensive sex education and access to effective contraception.

    > The danger goes both ways.
    What a crock. An absolute crock, and you should be ashamed. How dishonest do you have to be to pretend that the same kind of violent attacks perpetrated by abortion protesters – like bombings, personal threats, and shootings – are being perpetrated against abortion protesters at a rate even resembling the former? I’ll give you a hint at how unequal these are: You’re crying foul because your repetitive comment wasn’t posted on a blog. Meanwhile, abortion providers are fearing for their lives. What’s disgusting is that you think that equating the two is justifiable. Ah, but you claim to value human life. Reprehensible.

    > Many women will regret the fact that she aborted her baby.
    This is true. But some of those women aborted wanted children due to medical reasons, and those “regrets” would be included if poll questions are not designed carefully. But, fine, I’ll even let you have those. Find the percentage of women who get an abortion who regret it within five years. Then find the percentage of women who are thankful for the opportunity to get an abortion in the past five years. Let’s compare these numbers. I dare you to post them.

    > These aborted babies are also someone’s grandchildren,
    No, they’re not. The government does not consider a woman a mother or guardian of a dependent for being pregnant. When a woman is pregnant for the first time, she will say, “I’m going to be a mother!” not “I’m a mother!” This is because they’re not babies. They’re zygotes or fetuses. Which leads us to…

    > They are not just “unfeeling clumps of cells” as Savonarola mistakenly stated.
    More dishonesty, this time worse than plagiarism. In order to be mistaken, I would have had to be wrong. I wasn’t. The vast majority of abortions take place before the zygote/fetus has the capability of feeling, let alone feeling pain. They really are unfeeling clumps of cells.

    > There are certain things you cannot learn from books,
    Now the anti-intellectual push. That’s right, denigrate education, because education isn’t useful. Your personal physician is some person with no book education but has been around a while, right?
    No, even you don’t believe that. But you think that you’re justified in LYING about human embryonic development against years and years of research and evidence because you just get a funny feeling in your gut. Clearly, Phil has more patience than do I; I have a hard time putting up with that level of idiocy.

    > you learn them just by living.
    At this point you’ve gone from asinine to ridiculous. Or maybe ridiculous to asinine – at this point it’s hard to tell, there’s really so much of both. You consider these unfeeling clumps of cells alive but conclude that I don’t know things that are learned by living. Do you think that I’m not alive? How exactly does that work? Or do you just think that you have a monopoly on experiential knowledge?
    How dishonest do you have to be in order to “support” your position? Doesn’t it strike you as odd that you have to copy and paste talking points with no understanding, and that you (repeatedly) have to reject well-supported scientific findings, and that you have to lie by omission about the effect of abortion on women, just to support your argument? Are you so blinded by your ignorance of the facts that you can’t understand that supporting Planned Parenthood would cause the effect you claim to desire?

  33. I Was There at Planned Parenthood says:

    I’m not against all Planned Parenthood services, but they are one of the largest abortion providers. Personally I don’t understand why everything centers around having sex. You can laugh if you want, but “most” of us didn’t go around having sex with every person we dated. In fact, we were under the impression that sex was for those who were married. So”most” of us waited until we were married. I certainly didn’t want to get pregnant mostly because I would have to tell my parents. We never worried about getting a sexually transmitted disease either. I realize that now kids are bombarded with sex everywhere, but having sex with every Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally, or whoever is asking for trouble. Personally, as a young girl, I wanted respect from the guy I was with, not sex. We didn’t talk much about sex at home, but today families are much more open with their children. Wouldn’t it be better if their parents were involved in choosing a birth control method? There are different types of birth control pills and shouldn’t they be getting this from their family doctor? Is Planned parenthood the only condom supplier? Read the “funny?” story on this blog about the guys running into Planned parenthood for condoms. Don’t you think that if these guys are mature enough to be having sex that they ought to be mature enough to go into Walmart and purchase their condoms?

    You might not believe this, but at first I decided to make the comment that I had lost my patience with you too, Savonarola, and this was my last comment to Know It ALL and that I would not be praying for you either and that you were on your own. While proof reading the comment, my computer suddenly shut down. So I walked away from the computer disgusted. Then I remember a speech I heard last night by a Chicago Talk Radio Host. He suggested that if we wanted to make a difference in this country, we should choose just 1 issue that was important to us. To me that is abortion. As it turned out his issue was Right to Life also because he was adopted back when abortion wasn’t “the thing to do”. Thanks to Phil for posting my comments.BIRTHRIGHT – RIGHT TO LIFE – “THE NEW THING TO DO”. Try to keep it short, but I have so much to say.

    The Catholic Church doesn’t get any of your tax dollars. And this abortion issue has nothing to do with Catholic priests. So move on!

    When we pray & hold signs in front of an abortion center – yes, it is dangerous. We do it in the hope that we might save a life. We have no protection, no guards, no bullet proof glass. If the abortion doctors don’t like living in danger, then why don’t they change their course in practicing medicine? The comparison you made on this subject was downright stupid. I didn’t cry foul regarding my comment not being posted. I only asked a question. I have never commented on a blog like this in my life. This is a first & I’m not sure how it all works. That is the truth. I tried not to repeat my first comment about the development of a baby, but to continue on with the development thru the 9th month. Tried to keep my comment short.

    I’m not ashamed and I’m not dishonest. You live by facts and I live by what is in my heart,common sense, and what I have learned in my 61 years of living. Believe me, I’ve seen some tough times. Thank God I have never had an abortion, because I could not forgive myself because I love babies and I love my children and grandchildren and my 4 pets. I know about love. Do you know about love? Do you have children? Do you have pets? If you have a womb, have you ever carried a baby in your womb? I have.

    I know you are against late-term abortion, but do you think they are still performed in some clinics? How about the doctor who was arrested recently for his late term abortions. One baby was put in a box with extremities still moving, which meant that baby was in extreme agony due to his spinal cord being severed. I met a doctor at a March for Life in WA. He sat next to me on a park bench and confessed to performing over 1,000 abortions, some of which were his own babies. Eventually he became Catholic and pro life. He attended every pro life rally he could and confessed to everyone he met. I didn’t ask his name, but I read recently that an abortion turned pro life doctor died. And you know what, I bet he was forgiven because he repented. I believe that God is a forgiving God, the difficult part is forgiving ourselves.

  34. Savonarola says:

    I Was There wrote,
    > Personally I don’t understand why everything centers
    > around having sex. [snip off-topic diatribe]
    Things don’t change just because people don’t understand. For as long as there are people, there will be people having sex. Whether you or I or anybody thinks it’s a good idea under a given set of circumstances is almost entirely irrelevant. Why is it not entirely irrelevant? Well, consider the following:

    > Wouldn’t it be better if their parents were involved
    > in choosing a birth control method?
    It depends on the parents, and this is the case where what parents think has an effect on the situation. Even you admit that you were given the impression that you were not to have sex prior to marriage. Many parents still try to instill stone-age “morals” in their kids, and that means that these teens who have raging hormones and incredible curiosity are being conditioned, but not conditioned not to have sex, rather conditioned to have FEAR of being caught having had sex. And that changes the ballgame.
    This is why we have conservatives pushing abstinence-only education. But it doesn’t work, and it either produces no difference or an INCREASE in these things that are generally considered social dysfunctions (teen pregnancy, abortion, STDs) because these people aren’t educated about how to properly protect themselves. So these kids are making sub-par decisions because they are being denied access to the education that will allow them to make better ones.

    > There are different types of birth control pills and shouldn’t
    > they be getting this from their family doctor?
    And risk having conservative parents ready to ground them until they’re 18?

    > Don’t you think that if these guys are mature enough
    > to be having sex that they ought to be mature enough
    > to go into Walmart and purchase their condoms?
    I’m sure it would be that way in a perfect world. Instead, AS YOU SAID, sex is presented by many parents as this taboo subject, and — as the “funny” story pointed out — it’s just too embarrassing to buy sex paraphernalia in public.
    In addition, this turns private business into public business. Frankly, I’m not inclined to walk into Wal-Mart with a date and buy a box of condoms, for the same reason that I don’t tell people where I live, or tell my students what I do for fun. It’s my business, not the community’s, especially when the community thinks of sex as some sort of noteworthy topic! It’s a vicious cycle. But for youths who face ramifications (other than the direct ramifications of having sex, say from parents or church members), being “caught” buying condoms is considered dangerous. Thus, the solution the youths choose is to risk sex without condoms.
    This wouldn’t be a problem if sex were not such a taboo subject about which youths are being denied comprehensive education and freedom from bronze-age era punishment.

    > … and that I would not be praying for you either
    A wise choice. I’m sure you can find things that are more effective uses of your time; you know, things that might actually have an effect.

    > my computer suddenly shut down.
    I’m sure it was a sign from the computer gods. You should thank them.

    > we should choose just 1 issue that was important to us.
    Just one? Amateurs.
    But I’m not sure why you bother. According to mainstream Christianity, this life barely matters.

    > When we pray & hold signs in front of an abortion
    > center – yes, it is dangerous… We have no
    > protection, no guards, no bullet proof glass.
    Completely asinine. By that logic, going to Wal-Mart to buy condoms is dangerous, because there’s no protection (well, except the condoms), no guards, and no bulletproof glass. Being at work is dangerous because there’s no protection, no guards, and no bulletproof glass. Being at home at my computer is dangerous because there’s no protection, no guards, and no bulletproof glass! (I guess I’ll just live the rest of my life in a box of bulletproof glass with an armed guard.)

    > The comparison you made on this subject was downright stupid.
    The comparison you just made on this subject wasn’t just stupid, it was downright idiotic. Again, I IMPLORE you to find numbers comparing how often abortion providers have been attacked with violence and how often abortion protesters have been attacked with violence. I’m not kidding. I want you to do it. I dare you to make an argument that they’re even in the same realm.

    > If the abortion doctors don’t like living in danger,
    > then why don’t they change their course in
    > practicing medicine?
    FFS. The level of idiocy is climbing exponentially.
    1. You just got through arguing that protesting is dangerous. If you don’t like living in danger, why are you protesting? See, if you think that what you’re doing is right, then you’ll do it even in danger. How can that make sense for protesters to continue but not for abortion providers to continue? My hypocrisy meter is off the charts.
    2. What the extremist abortion protesters are doing is not merely “like” terrorism, it *IS* terrorism. Your argument is that abortion providers should bow to terrorism. There is a reason the government has a policy not to negotiate with terrorists, but you can’t seem to see the forest for the tree branch you’re beating people over the head with.

    > I’m not ashamed
    I’m sure you’re not. And that’s a shame.

    > and I’m not dishonest.
    Then you don’t know that you’re terribly, stupidly wrong about these factual issues. Which is worse in your opinion, lying about something or being too uneducated to know the facts about it?

    > You live by facts
    Yes. It’s quite nice. I accept that two plus two equals four, that the sun provides the earth with lots of energy, and that fetuses prior to 18 weeks do not feel pain. You know, facts. Oh, wait, you *DON’T* know! And that’s the problem.

    > and I live by what is in my heart,
    Yes, you do. How many brain cells are in your heart? I’ll give you a hint: not enough to change the fact that “heart”-based decisions are notorious for producing unreliable results.

    > common sense,
    No, you really don’t. Common sense says that zygotes aren’t people. Common sense says that education is important. Common sense says that negotiating with terrorists is a bad move. You reject all of these assertions.

    > and what I have learned in my 61 years of living.
    “I’m old, therefore I’m wise.” Sorry, age alone doesn’t give you wisdom. I don’t care how old you are; most of your allegedly factual statements are demonstrably wrong.

    > Do you know about love? Do you [blah blah blah]?
    Let’s pretend, merely for the sake of argument, that I had no experience whatsoever with any of these things. How would that support your point? It wouldn’t. You’re just blathering on about how you must have special experiential knowledge that’s unavailable to anybody else. What a crock.

    > I know you are against late-term abortion, but do you
    > think they are still performed in some clinics?
    In some cases, yes, particularly for medical reasons. And I support those.

    > How about the doctor who was arrested recently for his
    > late term abortions.
    And if your allegations are true, then that’s good. But to argue that all abortions should be stopped because some abortions are travesties is like saying that all people should be imprisoned because some people are rapists.

    > the difficult part is forgiving ourselves.
    I agree. But we need forgive ourselves only when we feel we’ve done wrong. You can wax poetic about conversions and having wombs all you want, but the difficult part for you appears to be producing a rational argument in support of your position. I feel no need to forgive myself for supporting a woman’s right to choose because I feel that that’s the right thing to do. You feel no need to forgive yourself for protesting a woman’s right to choose because you feel that that’s the right thing to do. Not both of us can be right. I think I’m right because I have good reasons. You think you’re right because you have a heart and a gut feeling. You apparently didn’t bother to consider that I have those things, too.
    I’ll take reason and logic over illogical, unreasonable gut feelings any day of the week.

    I maintain that my earlier statements hold. If you cared about reducing the number of abortions, you’d work WITH Planned Parenthood, not against them. If you cared about life and well-being, you wouldn’t object to giving women the ability to choose what is best for them. If you cared about preventing unwanted pregnancies and STDs, you’d be handing out prophylactics and contraceptives rather than of lobbying against those who do.

    Instead, you hold a sign and mumble to an invisible sky daddy.
    And call it “dangerous.”

    Common sense, huh?

  35. I Was There at Planned Parenthood says:

    Here’s some numbers for you – in 2009 Planned Parenthood referred 977 women for adoptions. They performed over 332,000 abortions!!! They are the #1 abortion provider and some of my tax money is going to support Planned Parenthood. According to the people on this blog, the plan is to donate money to PP according to the # of volunteers that are there praying for an end to abortion. Do they really think they need their money? Government funding for PP will eventually end.

    n my opinion, they can give out all the condoms they want. I’m not opposed to that. However, I was taught that if you had to sneak around to do something, you probably shouldn’t be doing it. Fear has its place. Perhaps parents are too easy on their kids. I can only remember 1 spanking, but when my dad said something, he meant it! He was the boss. Fathers need to be the head of the household and be involved with their kids. I think that fathers are getting more involved today. Maybe because all the moms have to work too. Yes, I realize not all families are perfect & mine is not perfect either. When my son was in college, he now has his doctorate and teaches in a medical school, he complained to me one day – “because of the way you brought us up, I can’t just go around having sex the way I would like. That is not easy, you know.”

    I have participated in a rosary walk. We walked from the church to the abortion clinic while praying the rosary. When we got to the abortion clinic, we prayed for an end to abortion. Then we prayed for the babies who have been aborted. Balloons – 1 at a time -were released for all those who would have been doctors, all those who would have been nurses, all those who would have been scientists, all those who would have been firemen, someones brother or sister, construction workers. etc. I read somewhere(I think it was in a book – It Happened While You Were Sleeping) that China is thinking about doing away with their 1 child policy. It seems they don’t have enough people to take care of parents and grandparents. You’ve heard the saying – it takes 2 parents to raise a family, but a whole family to care for 2 parents. Next, China will be killing the elderly. Has anyone read that book. I only had time to read a chapter, but very interesting.

    One more story, my sister miscarried 2 babies due to an incompetent cervix. They did not live in our hometown, but brought the babies home. My mom made little blankets for them and my dad made small wooden boxes for them. They got to see their beloved grandchildren before they were buried close to their other grandfather’s grave. I don’t recall how far along she was, but perhaps 4 or 5 months.What a loving tribute to those babies. How different from all the babies who are aborted and throw in trash cans. What a shame. What a shame. They did a permanent stitch in her cervix and she then carried 2 daughters to full term. They now have 3 and awaiting the birth of the 4th grandchild. Maybe she will meet those 2 babies in the next life. Anything is possible.

    The computer shut off – maybe it was just a fluke or maybe it was meant for you, Savonarola or someone else who is reading this blog. Birthright, Right to Life – the new “IN THING”. check out the yellow pages.

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